RFC Classical World

[DC123456789]

I wonder what is up with that leaderhead (Kalinka)? it doesn't crash my game. for now open leaderheadinfos.xml, find Kharavela and change ART_DEF_LEADER_BHOJA to ART_DEF_LEADER_GANDHI

the tech tree is finished

unit roster looks like this (all numbers subject to adjustment):

Spoiler :

spearman (melee) 4 str, +50% vs mounted, no resource, no tech

axeman (melee) 5 str, copper or iron, warrior code

swordsman (melee) 6 str, +10% city attack, iron, warrior code, steel working

pikeman (melee) 7 str, +50% vs mounted, iron, military drill

chariot (mounted) 5 str, -10% city attack, 10% withdrawal, horse, warrior code

horseman (mounted) 6 str, -10% city attack, 20% withdrawal, horse, horsemanship

archer (missile) 4 str, 1 first strike, +50% city defense, no resource, archery

catapult (siege) 4 str, +50 city attack, siege engines

trebuchet (siege) 4 str, +100% city attack

elephant (elephant) 9 str, +25% vs mounted, elephants, horsemanship

armored spearman (melee) 8 str, +25% vs mounted, iron, scale armor

armored swordsman (melee) 10 str, +10% city attack, iron, scale armor

javelinman (missile) 4 str, 20% withdrawal, +50% vs melee, +100% vs elephants, no resource, infantry tactics

horse archer (missile cavalry) 6 str, -10% city attack, 1 first strike, 30% withdrawal, horse, horse archery

lancer (mounted) 12 str, -10% city attack, horse and iron, selective breeding, scale armor

heavy infantry (melee) 14 str, +10% city attack, iron, chainmail

armored elephant (elephant) 14 str, +25% vs mounted, elephants, iron, horsemanship, scale armor

marksman (missile) 7 str, 1 first strike, +50% city defense, copper or iron, marksmanship, scale armor

heavy horse archer (missile cavalry) 7 str, -10% city attack, 1 first strike, 30% withdrawal, horse, iron, horse archery, marksmanship, the stirrup

crossbowman (missile) 9 str, 1 first strike, +50% city defense, +25% vs melee, machinery

heavy lancer (mounted) 16 str, -10% city attack, horse and iron, the stirrup, chainmail

civics (4 choices/category):

Spoiler :

govt:
federation, low upkeep
monarchy +3 happy in 3 largest cities, +5free units, med upkeep
oligarchy +50% GPP, +50% GGP, med upkeep
empire -50% maintenance from number of cities, high upkeep

legal:
custom, low upkeep
tyranny, +1 happy/military unit, medium upkeep
vassalage, +2xp, 5 free units, +1 free unit/5 pop, med upkeep
bureaucracy, +1 coin/specialist, +50% commerce and production in capital, high upkeep

labor:
levy, low upkeep
slavery, slaves, med upkeep
caste system, +2xp priests x2, med upkeep
serfdom, sacrifice population, med upkeep

economy:
decentralization, low upkeep
agrarianism, +1 coin from farm, orchard, med upkeep
mercantilism, +1 trade route/city, +50% trade route yield, merchants x2, med upkeep
patronage, +50% culture in all cities, artist x2, med upkeep

religion:
paganism, low upkeep
state religion, +25% building construction w state religion, missionaries, med upkeep
syncretism, +1 happy w state religion, +1 happy w other religion, +15% research, med upkeep
militancy, +2xp w state religion, no foreign religion spread, med upkeep

there will be some new buildings as well as changes to existing buildings.

I also have some map changes but those will wait for now

the new tech tree and associated changes should be up by tomorrow I think.

Will the empire civic still reduce the expansion stability penalty?

 

[srpt]

yes, as will bureaucracy

 

[Tigranes]

I also have some map changes but those will wait for now

the new tech tree and associated changes should be up by tomorrow I think.

I guess this did not work out as planned, sadly. I was looking forward to check the changes before this long weekend ended...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Well, it was only a long weekend in the US
Or if July 1 was free in Canada, than it was still a different kind of long weekend

 

[Swarbs]

"Pike is better at anti cav work than armoured spear" error, pike should be +25% vs mounted

Wouldn't it make more sense to have armoured spearmen have +50% vs cavalry? I've always thought the +25% for current spears is too low, as it means that only slightly more powerful axe or sword based units become more effective against cavalry. And in the current roster, why would you ever build armoured spearmen when armoured swordsmen are just as strong against cavalry, and stronger vs everything else?

Having pikes 7+50% vs cav and armoured spears 8+50% vs cav would be better imo - it would also mean spears can defeat later era cavalry with training and terrain.

"Overall I think it will be best to organize units into tiers available on roughly same level in tech tree. " I disagree. I find that approach restrictive

Absolutely agree. A tier based approach is not only more restrictive, but also removes any sort of variability in gameplay between eras. There should, imo, be some differences between unit types across periods, so you start with the dominance of pikes, then move towards infantry and finally cavalry, as in the real classical world (phalangites to legions to horse archers and cataphracts).

 

[Ogi123]

Wouldn't it make more sense to have armoured spearmen have +50% vs cavalry? I've always thought the +25% for current spears is too low, as it means that only slightly more powerful axe or sword based units become more effective against cavalry. And in the current roster, why would you ever build armoured spearmen when armoured swordsmen are just as strong against cavalry, and stronger vs everything else?

Having pikes 7+50% vs cav and armoured spears 8+50% vs cav would be better imo - it would also mean spears can defeat later era cavalry with training and terrain.

Actually bonuses vs certain type of unit, decreases opposing unit strength. So it's more effective if opposing unit is stronger. But problem is that low str units with vs bonus, are used mainly as SoD guard.

Absolutely agree. A tier based approach is not only more restrictive, but also removes any sort of variability in gameplay between eras. There should, imo, be some differences between unit types across periods, so you start with the dominance of pikes, then move towards infantry and finally cavalry, as in the real classical world (phalangites to legions to horse archers and cataphracts).

I suggested tier based approach because from new tech tree preview there isn't that much place to place that much units. And you argument about force composition is rather western centric. I don't remember Chinese phalanx for example...

 

[srpt]

progress report:

tech tree done, 90% happy with it, the ending is a bit up in the air, tech costs are nominal so far, need to be balanced. it is not really at all like the spreadsheet version I posted. it fits the screen without scrolling up and down. its 10 columns deep. many techs were removed, (including any tech that absolutely every civ in the mod started with and any that did nothing), some renamed and some moved quite far from their previous relative position in the tree. there are some new techs as well: taxation, sanitation, and warrior code. I think there will have to be some adjustment of tech speed for large and small empires and possibly between moving to a new era and "filling in".

all civics, buildings and units reconciled to the new techs. there are 2 new buildings (public baths and jeweller)

the civic types are as has been posted above, 4 choices per category. many effects will change

the unit setup is like the ones I outlined above, at least in the unit types and the sequence in which they appear. all stats are nominal so far and they rise rather slowly as tech progresses. it may not stay that way, but I think it is a good place to start.

there are 2 new buildings: public baths (+1 happy, +1 health, 3rd tier tech) and jeweller (+1happy with metals (forge loses this), 1 artist, 3rd tier tech
the forge is now 1st tier tech but loses the happiness
library replaced by lyceum (or another name implying academy or school), no culture, just science and comes with mathematics, 7th tier tech which represents more abstract/higher math.
monasteries get 1 scholar and +20% science, keep culture, 4th tier
theatre comes with literature, 5th tier, +1 happy, culture, artist
foundry, 5th tier, 2 engineers, +50% prod

there are some UHVs that are currently under reconstruction in light of the tech tree changes, or for other reasons (Antigonids, Nubia, Pandyans, Tang, Arabs, Egypt). I'm going to leave these unfinished for the moment because I want to commit the changes I have.

lots of leftover unused features removed

***

I have run auto-plays up to the Tocharians with no errors. I need to test a bit more and change some art but will probably commit the changes today. it will of course be save breaking

 

[srpt]

its up, svn 276

 

[Ogi123]

Can you post it as main download?

 

[Tigranes]

its up, svn 276

I get this:

Assert Failed

File: CvGlobals.cpp
Line: 3612
Expression: strcmp(szType, "NONE")==0 || strcmp(szType, "")==0
Message: info type ERA_ANCIENT not found, Current XML file is: xml\GameInfo/CIV4GraphicOptionInfos.xml

 

[srpt]

svn 278

should be able to post main download tomorrow

 

[calad]

Good to see a proper Ai for slaves. Say srpt expect a new techtree are there other major goal or projects?

 

[Tigranes]

Techs became more expensive, it seems. How do one founds Christianity now?

 

[calad]

I thought founding Christianity is automated but maybe there is a UHV related on it

 

[Samani]

I played a few games on rev.278 and here are some issues or feedbacks:
My first game was as Seleukos. I think that Phalangites replacing Pikeman rather than Armored Spearmen would make more sense, i don't know if this is intentionnal but it makes Phalangites useless and not possible to produce in early game.
I also think that giving 2 starting Pikemen instead of 2 armored spearmen to Antigonids would make more sense too.
Then, I played as Asoka, and there is an issue with the UP. In fact, the game automatically switch your religion civic from state religion to paganism in the first 10 turns. This might be due to new civic system. Also, there is still a problem with Kharavela leaderhead, the game crashes as I click on his name on the scoreboard.
On the following screenshot, i think that the red building rushed come from the new slavery system for IA.

Spoiler :

And to finish, a small funny issue: the worker-elephant, a worker with 8-strenght or a war elephant which can improve terrain, depends on your point of vue.

Spoiler :

Otherwise, the new units are cool, as the new civics and the new tech tree, I really enjoyed these new features.

EDIT: The elephant cannot build anything in fact, there is just the button.

 

[srpt]

svn 279 up

Good to see a proper Ai for slaves. Say srpt expect a new techtree are there other major goal or projects?

there are some map changes coming to the western mediterranean and some UHV changes. other than that I just want to get it all balanced and call it finished, it's been a long time.

Techs became more expensive, it seems. How do one founds Christianity now?

techs will be more expensive because there are not as many of them. I think the founding of Christianity should be left scripted, at least for now. I don't know what the ramifications for the region-based schism would be if it was founded somewhere else. there aren't any UHVs that require founding Christianity( I don't think), just converting to it.

I played a few games on rev.278 and here are some issues or feedbacks:
My first game was as Seleukos. I think that Phalangites replacing Pikeman rather than Armored Spearmen would make more sense, i don't know if this is intentionnal but it makes Phalangites useless and not possible to produce in early game.
I also think that giving 2 starting Pikemen instead of 2 armored spearmen to Antigonids would make more sense too.
Then, I played as Asoka, and there is an issue with the UP. In fact, the game automatically switch your religion civic from state religion to paganism in the first 10 turns. This might be due to new civic system. Also, there is still a problem with Kharavela leaderhead, the game crashes as I click on his name on the scoreboard.
On the following screenshot, i think that the red building rushed come from the new slavery system for IA.

Spoiler :

And to finish, a small funny issue: the worker-elephant, a worker with 8-strenght or a war elephant which can improve terrain, depends on your point of vue.

Spoiler :

Otherwise, the new units are cool, as the new civics and the new tech tree, I really enjoyed these new features.

EDIT: The elephant cannot build anything in fact, there is just the button.

yes Phalangites should be Pikeman replacements and the Antigonids should start with Pikemen. those were errors. the Seleucids starting elephants had worker AI set for them in the WBS. the Mauryan UP bug relates to the civic reorganization and has been fixed. also, I think I found the problem with the Kalinka leaderhead: I discovered that the art files were not in the svn.

 

[Tigranes]

techs will be more expensive because there are not as many of them. I think the founding of Christianity should be left scripted, at least for now. I don't know what the ramifications for the region-based schism would be if it was founded somewhere else. there aren't any UHVs that require founding Christianity( I don't think), just converting to it.

Well, Armenia has to be first to convert to Christianity, which in technical terms is best assured by (unhistorically) founding one...

 

[Ogi123]

Has the main download updated?
EDIT: Never mind, downloaded svn.

First impressions:

Really like new tech tree, although some tech still can be cut/modified. Paper does nothing, taxation enables only wealth, aristocracy only effect is oligarchy etc.

Units still needs some balancing.
-Axeman and swordsman are single tech apart and both are obsoleted by pike also single tech from them. Pike is obsoleted by armoured spear who is also single tech from it. That's way to many units to close to each other.

-Archers. marksmen, crossbow are somewhat to good in city defence. They all should be simply +25% city/hill defence, with fortify and first strike that's enough.

-Horse archers are still to weak, they keep they strength from previous versions of mod but all units gained str. +25% vs melee mod does not save them, my solution is increase str of horse archer to 7 and heavy version to 10, perhaps removing melee mod.

-Spear line needs rework, currently there is no counter to cavalry.

-Axeman and swordsman are to close together and immediately obsolete with military drill.

-Lots of UU are to strong in comparison to base unit. Falxman for example gets +1str and +100%vs melee.

-Bureaucracy has no stability bonus and no bonuses for capital is that indented? Because it make it weak and unusable in current form.

-Tyranny and slavery global unhappiness really hurts early empires when you access to luxury resources is limited.

-Tyranny still don't have cap on police limit.

-Windmill and lumber mill are still pointless to build.

-Foundry is to strong, +50% production, 2 engineer slots and +15% production from iron. +25% production and two engineer slots are enough.

-Lycenum should get renamed back to library, it's to west centric name IMHO.

-Hospital could really use some boost, +1 additional health?

Will post some in depth thoughts about units later.

 

[calad]

Okay some feedback here and bugs as well:

is techtraiding possible at all anymore? what is key tech?

Bulk trade tech is way too important, every civ shoud beeline it. Why: it gives +1 trade route, enables fairground (+1 trade route) and enables trade economy (+1 trade route and it removes decentrilization penalty -1 trade route). So in total you gain +3 trade route and +1 more with one building. I suggest to move +1 route bonus to tome other tech and rework how trade economy civiv works, maybe +30% commercy from trade?

Also trade economy civic is OP. It gives +1 trade route and +1 coastal trade route. Patronage is a joke, it gives you only more culture and agrarianism is really weak. Actually it is weaker than starting decentralization civic because it gives -50% on cottage growth.

Taxation tech is strange, only allows to build wealth.

Camel resource has Jewish religion icon.

Scout unit is a red dot.

Spearman cannot be upgraded.

Legions cannot be build and upgrade unit is swordman (it is basic unit, inferior).

Paper tech does nothing (empty).

Military drill is to cheap (720, earlier are about 2000).

Galley can be upgraded both into war galley and dhow.

Roman Empire does not start with Bureaucracy.

Roman Republic can adot Empire civic on start despite not having required rech.

Vassallage gives +0 free units.

 

[srpt]

sorry to disappear. went to northern Canada for 2 1/2 weeks and didn't really have internet access. I will put a new version up later today fixing most of the bugs mentioned here.