RFC Europe map development thread

[Úmarth]

Okay, I see your point. But the AI I think is easily discouraged - just have the starting units in Britain not on the mainland, ensuring they should go for Britain first. To clarify something, what I was suggesting was a spawn area covering Normandy and a portion of southern England (perhaps just London). So their capital would still be London from the start. Also, when defining homelands (I'm not exactly sure how this works, but going from Whitefire's map of the Mongol areas I think it's a three-tier system) England would be a core, while Ireland, north-western France and Scotland would be the second level. There would be a stability hit for pushing too far south into France.

I think its the best thing to do really, st.lucifer can have the final word.

If not, why are we using his name and his concept without permission?

Well, for the same reason he used Firaxis' name and concept without formal permission. But I agree we should ask him for his approval at some point.

 

[mitsho]

If he dissaproved, he would have said so a long time ago. It's "his" forum after alll...

m

 

[SadoMacho]

The map is looking very nice, good job!

3 points:
-German start : the current start is in the borders of the HRE. Aachen would be the best start Otto I was elected in Aachen. Germany has moved east during it's excistance. Aachen is close to France and Netherlands, this could crow up the map to much though.
Maybe this was been discused about earlier, but would it not be better to have a HRE and Prussia. Prussia could spwan later on (1600 or so) and grow to become Germany. This is how it would work out in reality. You could get the HRE and the dualisty Austria/Prussia, and some great chances for alternative history (what is Austria became th dominat power in the HRE and a great Germany would have formed)
-Maybe adding the river Schelde in Flanders. Flanders was a very rich countship from the 900's to 1400's (ended with the reformation when all the rich traders when to Holland and the Golden Age started there) A river would bring in some more gold (= wealth) and gives the delta look of the medieval coast of the low lands
-Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul:
this is going to be hard to improve, but, the city has no connection to the Medditerrenian Sea. Maybe putting a fort on the hills of Dardanelles could do the job. This passage is important. Due to the way maps are cnstructed in CIV IV, this is the best way, I think.

 

[Úmarth]

Okay, I made a couple of tweaks to the last map: the stuff we discussed about Britain, I filled in the med and the black sea with coast because there's no reason that galleys shouldn't be able to traverse it and I opened up the Dardanelles to connect (using a fort would be messy, imo, it could be destroyed) Constantinople to the med.

 

[st.lucifer]

The map is looking very nice, good job!

3 points:
-German start : the current start is in the borders of the HRE. Aachen would be the best start Otto I was elected in Aachen. Germany has moved east during it's excistance. Aachen is close to France and Netherlands, this could crow up the map to much though.
Maybe this was been discused about earlier, but would it not be better to have a HRE and Prussia. Prussia could spwan later on (1600 or so) and grow to become Germany. This is how it would work out in reality. You could get the HRE and the dualisty Austria/Prussia, and some great chances for alternative history (what is Austria became th dominat power in the HRE and a great Germany would have formed)
-Maybe adding the river Schelde in Flanders. Flanders was a very rich countship from the 900's to 1400's (ended with the reformation when all the rich traders when to Holland and the Golden Age started there) A river would bring in some more gold (= wealth) and gives the delta look of the medieval coast of the low lands
-Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul:
this is going to be hard to improve, but, the city has no connection to the Medditerrenian Sea. Maybe putting a fort on the hills of Dardanelles could do the job. This passage is important. Due to the way maps are cnstructed in CIV IV, this is the best way, I think.

If you can find Squirreloid, he'll argue it with you.

I'm not in favor of including the HRE as a civ. We've beaten the subject to death a few times, but it just...won't...die. Would it make sense to have multiple German kingdoms? Sure. But Prussia (historically represented) would show up at the very end of the mod - with maybe 20 turns of gameplay - what would their role be? Voltaire's joke about the HRE not being Holy, Roman, or an Empire is flippant, but it's also true. The suggestion that we had more or less adopted was to have the title of Holy Roman Emperor granted by the Apostolic Palace (as in the Charlemagne mod, but having it confer some special bonuses rather than victory.)

I do agree with your suggestion about the Dardanelles. That's a good idea, and shows the problem with trying to represent things based on their shape rather than gameplay.

If you'd like to put the Schelde in on a copy of the map, I'd be willing to consider it. I was trying not to overdo the rivers, but you're entirely correct that the Flanders/Netherlands area should be wet, full of rivers, and rich in trade.

 

[st.lucifer]

The map is looking very nice, good job!

3 points:
-German start : the current start is in the borders of the HRE. Aachen would be the best start Otto I was elected in Aachen. Germany has moved east during it's excistance. Aachen is close to France and Netherlands, this could crow up the map to much though.
Maybe this was been discused about earlier, but would it not be better to have a HRE and Prussia. Prussia could spwan later on (1600 or so) and grow to become Germany. This is how it would work out in reality. You could get the HRE and the dualisty Austria/Prussia, and some great chances for alternative history (what is Austria became th dominat power in the HRE and a great Germany would have formed)
-Maybe adding the river Schelde in Flanders. Flanders was a very rich countship from the 900's to 1400's (ended with the reformation when all the rich traders when to Holland and the Golden Age started there) A river would bring in some more gold (= wealth) and gives the delta look of the medieval coast of the low lands
-Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul:
this is going to be hard to improve, but, the city has no connection to the Medditerrenian Sea. Maybe putting a fort on the hills of Dardanelles could do the job. This passage is important. Due to the way maps are cnstructed in CIV IV, this is the best way, I think.

Okay, I made a couple of tweaks to the last map: the stuff we discussed about Britain, I filled in the med and the black sea with coast because there's no reason that galleys shouldn't be able to traverse it and I opened up the Dardanelles to connect (using a fort would be messy, imo, it could be destroyed) Constantinople to the med.

I like your changes to Britain and the Dardanelles. I'm a little less comfortable with the Med being completely coastal - there are some areas which are well-justified ship graveyards - but I'm fine with that if we have a galley-sinking event that pops up commonly in some of the more dangerous areas (somewhat like the Bermuda Triangle event.) Umarth's updated map is the 'official' one until the next 'official' update.

 

[SadoMacho]

Prussia could start out as the Teutonic Knights, it could start around 1255, and could give some fun for Poland and Lithuania, later on they were vassals to some nations, and then they became the strong and powerfull Prussians. So? I had expected that there had been a lot of arguements about this, but he... Could add some more swing to the game.

About the Low Lands:
I put in the Schelde (in Flanders) and the IJsel (in the Netherlands).

Put Dutch start 1 up to the North (that's Amsterdan, current is more or less Rotterdam) and switch grassland/jungle for those square, same thing with the grassland/Jungle to the right.

I was thinking of adding some fish too.

I made a Flemish jungle into plain (Kempen = less furtial area in Flanders)

Also: the dye-square: that's the location of Bruges (= Brugge in dutch) With the Dutch start moved up, you could place a city here around 800-900 AD. Bruges was a very important harbor during the Middle Ages, and an important trading centre

Here is an image of the map I had in mind:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/98114/Nederlanden.png

 

[Disenfrancised]

Prussia could start out as the Teutonic Knights, it could start around 1255, and could give some fun for Poland and Lithuania, later on they were vassals to some nations, and then they became the strong and powerfull Prussians. So? I had expected that there had been a lot of arguements about this, but he... Could add some more swing to the game.

The Teutonic Knights became the Prussian state in much the same way Texas became America - i.e. not. The moderately powerful Brandenburg gained prussia and used it as an additional power base outside the HRE. I personally think Prussia should be in, but starting as Brandenburg in 1415 (which would give them a good run), not as Prussia.

Besides the Teutonic Kights are likely to be represented twice already in the Mod: as the military order corporationesque thing, and probably as a HRE historical goal to conquer the east.

Added to that is the apparent concensus to not include Prussia .

I made a Flemish jungle into plain (Kempen = less furtial area in Flanders)

Compared with other areas it is still rather fertile.

Also: the dye-square: that's the location of Bruges (= Brugge in dutch) With the Dutch start moved up, you could place a city here around 800-900 AD. Bruges was a very important harbor during the Middle Ages, and an important trading centre

I like the dye, though a few more marsh squares (to aid defense and make the dutch ability (if we keep it being able to build on marshlands) more useful).

I very much like Umarth's idea about a 1066 English start (though it does smack of determinism) with an spawn area that includes Caen (have a Independent city there from the start to help ensure this) and has a settler in london to make the capital. Anglo-saxon england could well be represented with independents/a minor civ, which might also encourage Norse attacks prior to englands spawn.

 

[st.lucifer]

Prussia could start out as the Teutonic Knights, it could start around 1255, and could give some fun for Poland and Lithuania, later on they were vassals to some nations, and then they became the strong and powerfull Prussians. So? I had expected that there had been a lot of arguements about this, but he... Could add some more swing to the game.

That was one of the proposals, and it was a good one - but we're doing the Teutonic Knights as a military order (replacing corporations), and the area's not going to be empty. I only have Gdansk on the map at the moment, but Baltic cities such as Konigsberg, Memel, and Riga will show up at some point, as will Leipzig and possibly Berlin (if not founded yet), and Poland is going to want to expand northwards. You can make a strong argument for having multiple German civs, but I'm much more comfortable representing the HRE/Germanic kingdoms this way. It's unfortunate that the history of the area is so complicated - if one faction or electorate had dominated for hundreds of years, they'd be worth including. Instead, you can make reasonable arguments for Saxony, Bavaria, Moravia, and Brandenburg/Prussia, and weaker arguments for some of the smaller states. I think that having 'electorate' as a government civic and the HRE title being a possible grant from the AP (with a territory requirement) is probably the best way to represent the German conundrum.

Thinking about it, it would probably be better if we kicked this back into the civ discussion thread if you're interested in debating it further.

About the Low Lands:
I put in the Schelde (in Flanders) and the IJsel (in the Netherlands).

Put Dutch start 1 up to the North (that's Amsterdan, current is more or less Rotterdam) and switch grassland/jungle for those square, same thing with the grassland/Jungle to the right.

I was thinking of adding some fish too.

I made a Flemish jungle into plain (Kempen = less furtial area in Flanders)

Also: the dye-square: that's the location of Bruges (= Brugge in dutch) With the Dutch start moved up, you could place a city here around 800-900 AD. Bruges was a very important harbor during the Middle Ages, and an important trading centre

Here is an image of the map I had in mind:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/98114/Nederlanden.png

Thanks for the map update. Would moorland (wettish lower-food-production area) be more appropriate for Kempen than plains?

Also, didn't the IJ change course sometime during our mod's timeline? Is it large enough to be important? I know that Brugge/Bruges was an important city/harbor, but more so than Antwerp, Rotterdam, Ghent, or Amsterdam?

The fish and the Schelde are fine.

 

[jessiecat]

The Teutonic Knights became the Prussian state in much the same way Texas became America - i.e. not. The moderately powerful Brandenburg gained prussia and used it as an additional power base outside the HRE. I personally think Prussia should be in, but starting as Brandenburg in 1415 (which would give them a good run), not as Prussia.

Besides the Teutonic Kights are likely to be represented twice already in the Mod: as the military order corporationesque thing, and probably as a HRE historical goal to conquer the east.

Added to that is the apparent concensus to not include Prussia .



Compared with other areas it is still rather fertile.



I like the dye, though a few more marsh squares (to aid defense and make the dutch ability (if we keep it being able to build on marshlands) more useful).

I very much like Umarth's idea about a 1066 English start (though it does smack of determinism) with an spawn area that includes Caen (have a Independent city there from the start to help ensure this) and has a settler in london to make the capital. Anglo-saxon england could well be represented with independents/a minor civ, which might also encourage Norse attacks prior to englands spawn.

I'm in favour of Umarth's idea too, as long as London becomes the capitol.
And they should hold one city in Normandy from the start, but not Caen.
It should be Rouen, which became the capitol of Normandy under Rollo or
Robert of Normandy in 912. And Rouen Cathedral was where all the Norman
kings of England where crowned.

 

[st.lucifer]

I'm in favour of Umarth's idea too, as long as London becomes the capitol.
And they should hold one city in Normandy from the start, but not Caen.
It should be Rouen, which became the capitol of Normandy under Rollo or
Robert of Normandy in 912. And Rouen Cathedral was where all the Norman
kings of England where crowned.

I think that makes everyone except ZZZ weighing in, then. Starting them in 1060 is fine with me, and I agree with Jessiecat that we should use Rouen rather than Caen. Caen may have been more significant early, but Rouen was a much more important city through the mod timeline.

If we start the Normans with an army in England and only a few defenders in Rouen, they'll head north rather than trying to transship the army a couple of units at a time.

I like the idea of running Anglo-Saxon England as a strong independent. Actually, this might be a good way of satisfying those parties who keep clamoring for the inclusion of a Scottish or Irish civ - if we had pre-Norman England as an early civ like Babylon, with two fast UHV goals (the third being survival), that could make for an interesting balance and ensure that England gets built up a bit before the Normans spawn (ensuring that the conquest of England isn't an easy or given thing, and making up for their late start by giving them some existing population and infrastructure.)

What do people think about having a pre-Norman British Isles civ, and what would we call it?

 

[jessiecat]

I think that makes everyone except ZZZ weighing in, then. Starting them in 1060 is fine with me, and I agree with Jessiecat that we should use Rouen rather than Caen. Caen may have been more significant early, but Rouen was a much more important city through the mod timeline.

If we start the Normans with an army in England and only a few defenders in Rouen, they'll head north rather than trying to transship the army a couple of units at a time.

I like the idea of running Anglo-Saxon England as a strong independent. Actually, this might be a good way of satisfying those parties who keep clamoring for the inclusion of a Scottish or Irish civ - if we had pre-Norman England as an early civ like Babylon, with two fast UHV goals (the third being survival), that could make for an interesting balance and ensure that England gets built up a bit before the Normans spawn (ensuring that the conquest of England isn't an easy or given thing, and making up for their late start by giving them some existing population and infrastructure.)

What do people think about having a pre-Norman British Isles civ, and what would we call it?

I'm not sure about a pre-Norman civ at all mainly due to it's short timespan
historically. The unification of England only really began in 825 when Egbert
of Wessex defeated the Mercians and annexed Essex and Kent. Alfred had
limited success in unifying England from 871 to 899. But after his death
England was ruled on and off by the Danes right up to Godwin and Harold
in 1066. I think it would be more effective to have strong independent
cities like London,Winchester, Nottingham, York and Durham before this
time. The Normans could quickly conquer London and flip Winchester at
first. Then they would have to conquer the rest.
It would make more sense to have Scotland starting in 900 as a civ that
would give the English real competiton for next 800 years of the mod and
be a counterweight to Viking ambitions in England. Geographically it's very
doable with Edinburgh as capitol. Possible early UHV goals could include
taking Durham and invading Ireland as well as Orkney and Shetland.
That would please our Celtic fans as well, wouldn't it? Just a thought.

 

[Úmarth]

We can't have a civ (Scotland) just to give a challenge to another civ (England) - I know we've been talking about making it hard to be England but in the end we've got to have it fairly certain that the AI can unify Great Britain at least, otherwise they'll become a bit of a nonentity in the larger scheme of things. So we'll either have a civ predetermined to die or two very weak civs.

A pre-Norman civ... I like the idea, but I think there are some significant obstacles to implementing it: should it represent the Romano-British ('celtic') or Anglo-Saxon people, it would be hard to justify lumping them together because they had completely different languages and culture. What would their UHVs be? They may be the only civ on their island, and if we have them unifying it (which I think would be likely given how early in the game it is) then England will have a very hard time. Really I think we should have the early period in Britain free to let the independents build up and the Vikings to play around.

Also, the map only has space for Durham or York really (they'd be on adjacent tiles, although there's always the possibility that one would be raised and the other re-founded) and my vote is definitely for York.

 

[jessiecat]

We can't have a civ (Scotland) just to give a challenge to another civ (England) - I know we've been talking about making it hard to be England but in the end we've got to have it fairly certain that the AI can unify Great Britain at least, otherwise they'll become a bit of a nonentity in the larger scheme of things. So we'll either have a civ predetermined to die or two very weak civs.

A pre-Norman civ... I like the idea, but I think there are some significant obstacles to implementing it: should it represent the Romano-British ('celtic') or Anglo-Saxon people, it would be hard to justify lumping them together because they had completely different languages and culture. What would their UHVs be? They may be the only civ on their island, and if we have them unifying it (which I think would be likely given how early in the game it is) then England will have a very hard time. Really I think we should have the early period in Britain free to let the independents build up and the Vikings to play around.

Also, the map only has space for Durham or York really (they'd be on adjacent tiles, although there's always the possibility that one would be raised and the other re-founded) and my vote is definitely for York.

Actually the only reason I floated Scotland is that I'm sure an Anglo Saxon
one wouldn't be around long enough to matter. My original thought was no
other civ on the island at all. So I'm with you on that as long as we make
York and Edinburgh fairly strong, developed independents and the Vikings
aren't too strong in the beginning to swamp Scotland and the North. I think
there'd be room on the map too for weaker independents like Winchester,
Nottingham, Chester and Inverness as well, don't you think?

@st. lucifer. I think that makes it two votes against so far.

 

[Disenfrancised]

I think that makes everyone except ZZZ weighing in, then. Starting them in 1060 is fine with me, and I agree with Jessiecat that we should use Rouen rather than Caen. Caen may have been more significant early, but Rouen was a much more important city through the mod timeline.

I agree with Rouen being more significant, but its also much closer to Paris, and thus very likely to get swamped in French culture, and led to earlier wars. (plus its not coastal ).

If we start the Normans with an army in England and only a few defenders in Rouen, they'll head north rather than trying to transship the army a couple of units at a time.

Sounds good, though obviously needs testing once things get up and running.

I like the idea of running Anglo-Saxon England as a strong independent. Actually, this might be a good way of satisfying those parties who keep clamoring for the inclusion of a Scottish or Irish civ - if we had pre-Norman England as an early civ like Babylon, with two fast UHV goals (the third being survival), that could make for an interesting balance and ensure that England gets built up a bit before the Normans spawn (ensuring that the conquest of England isn't an easy or given thing, and making up for their late start by giving them some existing population and infrastructure.)

What do people think about having a pre-Norman British Isles civ, and what would we call it?

Personnally if we are allocating extra playable slots there are a number of states with greater scope (Aragon springs to mind, eh?).

Some options

A) Having three powerful independent cities (Beorma, Winchester/Bristol, and Durham for Mercia, Wessex, and Northumbria), whilst the south east flips to the Normans would be to my liking.

B) If we have different independents, perhaps a 'Celtic independent' in ireland, scotland, wales, Brittanny and north spain, whilst a 'Germannic' independent has cities in the west of germany and in england?

C) If we do have it as a minor civ then Anglo-Saxon England works fine IMO, but if its a full civ then I would suggest it starting out as Wessex, and growing to be Kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons* (really any of the bigger saxon kingdoms could have ended up on top, so we might as well go with the one who lucked out in real life).

*This is the title Athelstan and other kings were crowned with after all.

D) If it is a full civ (which I would like, but not as much as other civs being included) then perhaps something like this?:
UU: Fyrd (Spearman with bonus verses Melee)
UB: Deemings House (Courthouse with extra culture and happy)
UP: Power of Invasion: All units get a boost to city attack
UHV: 1) Conquer England by 1000 2) build X courthouses, monastaries and Castles by 1200 3) Have 1 Vassal in 1300 (implicit: survival)

 

[Disenfrancised]

Ugh, do I have to point this out again about the most recent map?

 

[Úmarth]

York is more appropriate for Northumbria, I think.

 

[Disenfrancised]

York is more appropriate for Northumbria, I think.

Why not have both? .

Okay here is a map with differing independents, also demonstrating the problem with a realistic placement of Rouen:

Heres a possible wessex spawn area:

Spoiler :

 

[Úmarth]

The Norman flip zone looks fine to me. But what is "Yorvick"?

 

[jessiecat]

The Norman flip zone looks fine to me. But what is "Yorvick"?

I think he means Jorvik/York, or are you just being
Looking at Normandy, Caen looks better as it's not too close to Paris.
In fact, why not Cherbourg? Still don't favour an Anglo Saxon civ though.
It could only last 200 years then get swallowed up by the Normans.
Unless you want two weak English civs? Instead I would make the
flip zone include Winchester as well. And if you want one city south of York,
either Peterborough or Nottingham are old enough and far enough south.
I agree about East Anglia as well. It is fertile, not just marshland.
If I can have my gripe too, When are getting rid of that awful white tundra?
Just grass all those hills over, it's not tundra for gods sake!
People in Cornwall and Wales have to eat too. And not just fish!
Have a look at this satellite map. The only non-green area is the extensive
china clay workings near St Austell. Even the "moors" are green!