RFC Europe map development thread

[jessiecat]

Lots of overlap in the Levant, but that's ok - there'll be built-up cities there from the beginning, and probably very few founded outside of Anatolia.

I wonder about Sinope and Trebizond. They're important, and should be included - but I worry again about making the Byzantine empire too strong from the start. Nicomedia falls into the same category - certainly important enough to justify inclusion, but if it starts out with the infrastructure or population that it should...

I'm assuming that the city in Epirus is intended as an independent, in the same orbit as Sarajevo, Beograd, and Zagreb? I'd remove it and Zagreb - six cities in that area (Split and Ragusa) is a lot to start out with. If we want to have some of these pop up later, that might be all right - but I'd rather start out with Split, Sarajevo, and Beograd, maybe Ragusa.

Nice job so far. I'm interested in what others have to say about the cities in question, especially as far as game balance is concerned.

You're probably right. Maybe just Trebizond then. And forget Nicomedia too. Preveza in Epirus was included to give the Byzantines a presence on the Greek Adriatic south of Ragusa. (Also personal for me I guess. Nearly drowned snorkel-diving off the Venetian castle there many years ago). Agree also about Spalato and Ragusa but I'd favour Ragusa as more important. Zagreb is pretty close to Venice so maybe not.
The city problem near the Danube will be interesting as it's going to be too crowded. Something will need to go but keep Sarajevo, which I've placed too close to Beograd. Same north of the Danube where it meets the the Kievan Rus. Anyway, it'll all be worked out by discussion in the end, I guess.

 

[st.lucifer]

You're probably right. Maybe just Trebizond then. And forget Nicomedia too. Preveza in Epirus was included to give the Byzantines a presence on the Greek Adriatic south of Ragusa. (Also personal for me I guess. Nearly drowned snorkel-diving off the Venetian castle there many years ago). Agree also about Spalato and Ragusa but I'd favour Ragusa as more important. Zagreb is pretty close to Venice so maybe not.
The city problem near the Danube will be interesting as it's going to be too crowded. Something will need to go but keep Sarajevo, which I've placed too close to Beograd. Same north of the Danube where it meets the the Kievan Rus. Anyway, it'll all be worked out by discussion in the end, I guess.

Yeah, the problem of accurately representing Byzantine territory without making them a superpower will be a challenge. Certainly they did control all of those places.

I'd go with Spalato and Ragusa over Zagreb in part because I think we had agreed in principle to flip Spalato to Venice upon spawning. If we want to have it (or both of them, really) appear well after the start of the mod, that's fine too.

If we move Sarajevo one space NW and Beograd one space E, there's room for both.

One word of caution on city placement - using a 9-square block rather than a 4-square block means that two cities could potentially be founded within the same-named area. In most cases, this would involve razing an existing city, but it's still something to think about.


If we gave the Byzantines Sinope and left Trebizond independent, that would keep their empire semi-manageable in size and preserve an important city. If we took out Sinope and gave them Trebizond, that would lead to some maintenance and possible stability issues, which would be a good counterbalance to the power of the Byzantine start. I think there are arguments to be made either way.

 

[Úmarth]

Is there any chance you can take some screenshots jessiecat? It's a bit cumbersome opening up a wbs.

 

[jessiecat]

Is there any chance you can take some screenshots jessiecat? It's a bit cumbersome opening up a wbs.

OK. I'll try to do that. There might be quite a few though.

Still not sure about posting to the wiki. Do I start a new page dedicated to
civ descriptions? Or do you want to make the city list clickable so we can
open each one and add details?

 

[jessiecat]

Yeah, the problem of accurately representing Byzantine territory without making them a superpower will be a challenge. Certainly they did control all of those places.

I'd go with Spalato and Ragusa over Zagreb in part because I think we had agreed in principle to flip Spalato to Venice upon spawning. If we want to have it (or both of them, really) appear well after the start of the mod, that's fine too.

If we move Sarajevo one space NW and Beograd one space E, there's room for both.

One word of caution on city placement - using a 9-square block rather than a 4-square block means that two cities could potentially be founded within the same-named area. In most cases, this would involve razing an existing city, but it's still something to think about.


If we gave the Byzantines Sinope and left Trebizond independent, that would keep their empire semi-manageable in size and preserve an important city. If we took out Sinope and gave them Trebizond, that would lead to some maintenance and possible stability issues, which would be a good counterbalance to the power of the Byzantine start. I think there are arguments to be made either way.

Spalato and Ragusa is fine with me. And I would choose Trebizond rather than Sinope.
Maybe not Preveza or Zagreb though. I'll alter them.

I think I can make enough room for Sarajevo by moving Beograd 1 sq. east. I take your point about 9sq. blocks.
I did that to give room for major city growth but I'll try to reduce others to 4 for the reasons you said.

I'll make these changes and repost the map and I'll try to make screenshots but there'll be a few,
as I said. Thanks for the tips.

EDIT: Revised map reposted here. Working on screenshots later today.

 

[jessiecat]

Not sure I've done this correctly but here goes. I've done them as rar archive.
Hope it works.

EDIT Save deleted

 

[Úmarth]

OK. I'll try to do that. There might be quite a few though.

Still not sure about posting to the wiki. Do I start a new page dedicated to
civ descriptions? Or do you want to make the city list clickable so we can
open each one and add details?

Just add a link under "Maps (.xls)". Although adding pages for each civ to add info on is a good idea. Done.

 

[Úmarth]

Not sure I've done this correctly but here goes. I've done them as rar archive.
Hope it works.

It's just full of loads of .zips with WBSs in them :S

All you need to do is hit Print Screen/"PrtScn" in your keyboard and then paste into Paint or another image program. Then save the image and attach it to a post.

 

[ijnavy]

I think that the map is a little wrong. Some of the rivers should be remade and smaller lakes should be considered to be put in. Also, I think that there is a lack of resources.

 

[jessiecat]

It's just full of loads of .zips with WBSs in them :S

All you need to do is hit Print Screen/"PrtScn" in your keyboard and then paste into Paint or another image program. Then save the image and attach it to a post.

Sorry. That won't work I'm afraid. My Print Screen key seems disabled.

However I could save it all on a wiki map and post that if you wish.

 

[st.lucifer]

I think that the map is a little wrong. Some of the rivers should be remade and smaller lakes should be considered to be put in. Also, I think that there is a lack of resources.

Resources are negotiable; we're going to be adding many luxury resources later after they're implemented, and we'll probably tweak some of the existing ones. The map as a whole won't be as resource-rich as the current RFC map, as it's considerably larger.

Let me know which rivers you have problems with (I know that some of the Russian/Ukrainian ones need work), and I'll look at them again. Which smaller lakes did you want to add? I've been wary about adding lakes because I haven't always been able to figure out which ones are large enough to be worth including, and which are artificial reservoirs.

 

[Úmarth]

Sorry. That won't work I'm afraid. My Print Screen key seems disabled.

However I could save it all on a wiki map and post that if you wish.

That would be convenient yes thank you.

 

[jessiecat]

OK I've transferred all my stuff to the excel map. As you can see, it covers
the Balkans thru Turkey and the East into Egypt as far as Alexandria. Hope
you can open this zipped save. Let me know if it's useful. Next, on thru
North Africa (when my strained eyes recover - maybe a pint or two).

EDIT Link updated to new post

 

[Úmarth]

Looks good to me.

 

[-W-]

I've completed the Swedish city placement -map. Didn't place any on tundra, since i recall that in RFC you can't settle on a tile of tundra, without water near.
Only problem is, I can't upload it so you guys could see it....

 

[ijnavy]

Did some small map changes in the Balkans, Italy, Britan, Scandinavia, Belarus, and Baltic countries. Deleted the marshes in Belarus and added the Pripet marshes instead. Added some islands. The map was already great.
Is it better of worse than before?

 

[jessiecat]

Looks good to me.

Since then, I've got as far as Morocco. Still working on that. What happens to postings on the
excel map? Do you translate it to code or something to get a map array? When I finish Morocco
then I'll repost the revised save tomorrow. It will cover all city placements from the Balkans
right around to the Atlantic islands.
BTW Do you want me to keep making skeleton pages for the civ list on the wiki like
the ones I've already done so people can add to them?

 

[Úmarth]

I'll convert them into code when they're all done. Does the Byzantine map really need to go as far as Morocco though? They never reconquered it historically and I can't see them doing it in-game either.

Yep please do continue working on the wiki, it's good to have information in one place.

 

[jessiecat]

I'll convert them into code when they're all done. Does the Byzantine map really need to go as far as Morocco though? They never reconquered it historically and I can't see them doing it in-game either.

Yep please do continue working on the wiki, it's good to have information in one place.

OK Thanks for the go-ahead on the wiki. I'll include some of other peoples' ideas
where I can as well. About the excel map though. I thought I was doing a city placement
map, just generic names for city founding, not civ-specific. Am I wrong?

EDIT Finished my work on the excel map. It now goes from the Balkans right around to the Atlantic
Ocean incl. the Canaries.

File edited and brought forward to latest post.

 

[Úmarth]

Yes we need a separate one for each civ. Hence why people have been claiming different civs for themselves, and all the talk of historical boundaries.