RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[Myri]

Haven't played this recently so I can't say for sure, but isn't limiting wonders to religion tantamount to making emperor UHVs impossible? (Round Church and Cluny seem to be the keys for a lot of the emperor wins)

At the moment you can only loose a game if you misunderstand UHVs, have some bad luck with fighting barbs very early or play Kiev (huge amounts of Keshiks from all sides).

bye Myri

 

[Myri]

but I guess I have to look at the Crusaders not attacking anything bug.

It's not just crusades, there are always unused stacks around neutral cities. Neutrals seem only to get captured if a "new" stack that can take a city in one turn is incoming, all already present troops aren't used. Remove troops in "sieged" cities, all the troops around will not attack if they earlier weren't able to conquer in one turn. Siege engines aren't used to lower defense, they just attack normally.

bye Myri

 

[embryodead]

It's not just crusades, there are always unused stacks around neutral cities. Neutrals seem only to get captured if a "new" stack that can take a city in one turn is incoming, all already present troops aren't used. Remove troops in "sieged" cities, all the troops around will not attack if they earlier weren't able to conquer in one turn. Siege engines aren't used to lower defense, they just attack normally.

bye Myri

I wonder if you or anyone noticed this behavior outside RFC/RFCE? It's certainly not confined to RFCE alone, because the same can happen in RFC (it's just not so obvious without the crusades), but I haven't seen such behavior in other mods (haven't really played vanilla BTS much) I may be completely wrong as I've simply played more RFC mods than others, but there are things in Rhye's code that modify how the AI selects cities to attack (e.g. cities that are not in the civ's area on its settler map are devalued). I'm just wondering how other see it, because I'm sure it's not just RFCE at least.

* * *

Regarding religion & wonders, I'm with you in that state religion is the only way to prevent Arabs from building all those Christian wonders, although perhaps the list of Christian-only wonders is a bit too long. Wonders like Magna Carta, Golden Bull, Leaning Tower and Marco Polo are not religious in nature and could remain universal.

 

[jessiecat]

Er... no...

Thanks for continuing to remind me about it though. In due time (or when someone else does it for me).

I've only reminded you (twice) because you still have it on your to-do list on sourceforge. If you haven't the time maybe Jediclemente could have a go. I would but I don't know how. Sorry.

 

[Myri]

I wonder if you or anyone noticed this behavior outside RFC/RFCE? It's certainly not confined to RFCE alone, because the same can happen in RFC (it's just not so obvious without the crusades),

I only saw something that looks like but isn't necessarily this problem in RFC with the osman army waiting for constantinople to flip.

bye Myri

 

[JediClemente]

Regarding religion & wonders, I'm with you in that state religion is the only way to prevent Arabs from building all those Christian wonders, although perhaps the list of Christian-only wonders is a bit too long. Wonders like Magna Carta, Golden Bull, Leaning Tower and Marco Polo are not religious in nature and could remain universal.

It's not a question of religious nature, but cultural background.

Byzantines and Arabs have a huge technological advantage in the early game. That is compensated by making the wonders more expensive in hammers for them (or so I think), but they can, and in most games do, use great engineers for example.

For me it isn't realistic to see those built in Constantinople or Damascus. It should be a competition between the "catholic" civs.

Of course you could argue that goes against you when you play an orthodox or muslim civ, but well... still it requires the religion in the city, not as state religion.

Though perhaps we can requiere the state religion only for the military orders.

 

[JediClemente]

I have a very small problem with the current SVN version:

There seems to be a city always built in the far right edge of the map, in Anatolia. You get it as the Ottomans after spawning, and can't refuse it.

It is a problem, because as it doesn't have a full fat cross, it'll never be anything more than a small town. In fact, Anatolia has far too many cities for the resources it hosts (except near the Aegean). And as the Ottomans you have to conquer a lot more.

Is it possible to make less cities appear there? And specifically, remove 2 tiles on the right side of Anatolia from the settler maps?

 

[sedna17]

I have a very small problem with the current SVN version:

There seems to be a city always built in the far right edge of the map, in Anatolia. You get it as the Ottomans after spawning, and can't refuse it.

It is a problem, because as it doesn't have a full fat cross, it'll never be anything more than a small town. In fact, Anatolia has far too many cities for the resources it hosts (except near the Aegean). And as the Ottomans you have to conquer a lot more.

Is it possible to make less cities appear there? And specifically, remove 2 tiles on the right side of Anatolia from the settler maps?

Actually I spawn a barb city there on purpose. I've dramatically strengthened the seljuk turks in the current SVN version as a way of (1) knocking down Byzantium and (2) giving the Ottomans more "reason" to spawn near Constantinople (which is historically accurate). I need a barb city to exist nearby or the barbs will just raze their cities as they take them and the edge of the map is the safest place to put it (because you can't found a normal city on the edge of the map). I agree that it's a bit of a problem.

The Ottoman spawn zone is going to change to be further east, so you won't take this city on spawn -- giving you the option to destroy it upon capture. Will this be sufficient?

 

[JediClemente]

Actually I spawn a barb city there on purpose. I've dramatically strengthened the seljuk turks in the current SVN version as a way of (1) knocking down Byzantium and (2) giving the Ottomans more "reason" to spawn near Constantinople (which is historically accurate). I need a barb city to exist nearby or the barbs will just raze their cities as they take them and the edge of the map is the safest place to put it (because you can't found a normal city on the edge of the map). I agree that it's a bit of a problem.

The Ottoman spawn zone is going to change to be further east, so you won't take this city on spawn -- giving you the option to destroy it upon capture. Will this be sufficient?

Yes, please!
Actually, I love what you did with the Seljuks, it makes the game in that area far more dynamic.

Problem is that makes Arabs more likely to collapse by that time, and they seem to never respawn. But that can surely be solved in the future.

BTW, did you notice what I said about Venetians losing civics after converting to catholicism?

And I've uploaded to the SVN the wonders changes. Didn't touch the later ones I mentioned, until we reach an agreement.

Edit: and another thing, I'd like crusades to still be called even if Jerusalem is barbarian.

 

[jessiecat]

Have you also noticed that the Seljuk barbs only attack the Arabs esp. if the're played by a human?

I like your changes to the wonders requirements. Much on the line of what I was thinking.

BTW Did you notice my suggestion above about adding text to the splash screens for the colonies, projects and wonders. If Sedna doesn't have time, would you be able to do it?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

whoops wrong thread
but since I'm here, I would really like to see the wonders requirements relaxed. It makes it too deterministic sometimes to have just one religion=certain wonders. (maybe it can just make it more expensive if other religions are in the city and the main one isn't)

 

[JediClemente]

Have you also noticed that the Seljuk barbs only attack the Arabs esp. if the're played by a human?

Hm. I've seen them taking most of Anatolia from the Byzantines.

 

[JediClemente]

whoops wrong thread
but since I'm here, I would really like to see the wonders requirements relaxed. It makes it too deterministic sometimes to have just one religion=certain wonders. (maybe it can just make it more expensive if other religions are in the city and the main one isn't)

Not really. Most of the civs are catholic until protestantism appears (and by then most of those wonders are already built). And you need it in the city, not as your official religion.

This will only affect you if playing as Arabs, Cordoba, Byzantines or Bulgaria.

 

[sedna17]

I can verify that simply adding Jerusalem and the surrounding country to a crusader's war-map makes the crusades much more satisfying. In a test game with the current war maps, Venice got the crusade and wandered around uselessly. I then reloaded before the crusade with the new war map for Venice, and the crusaders attacked and took Jerusalem. So, I'll just update the war maps for any plausible civs, and that will help a lot.

 

[Jusos2108]

I can verify that simply adding Jerusalem and the surrounding country to a crusader's war-map makes the crusades much more satisfying. In a test game with the current war maps, Venice got the crusade and wandered around uselessly. I then reloaded before the crusade with the new war map for Venice, and the crusaders attacked and took Jerusalem. So, I'll just update the war maps for any plausible civs, and that will help a lot.

Maybe Jerusalem should be high priority in every catholic civ's warmap!?

This is what I suggested on comment #2565. I am glad that you finally pay attention..

 

[JediClemente]

Can anything be done with Napoli and Sicily? Spain or someone should settle there, but never does.

BTW, can't Napoli be moved 1 tile south and east? So it isn't as crappy as now.

Ah! There's a city missing from Hungary's settlermap. "Inside" the balcans, above Bulgaria, sometimes they settle in the far east of that zone, between the mountains. And they call it Utica...

Edit: can they take not just Jerusalem, but Tyre and near Egypt also?

 

[sedna17]

Can anything be done with Napoli and Sicily? Spain or someone should settle there, but never does.

BTW, can't Napoli be moved 1 tile south and east? So it isn't as crappy as now.

It's proving sort of hard to make the AI settle islands. Genoa is still refusing to do it -- I don't know why. I agree that it's annoying. I guess we could try making a barb city of Sicily and see if that inspires the AI (the AI loves to take barb cities).

Edit: can they take not just Jerusalem, but Tyre and near Egypt also?

They will be in the new war maps.

 

[JediClemente]

And Venezia and Genoa will have Constantinople in their warmaps?

 

[sedna17]

And Venezia and Genoa will have Constantinople in their warmaps?

They already do, which is why those crusades sometimes actually do something. I was playing a Byzantine game last night and Genoa sent a crusade against me. With three turns of warning I was able to shuffle stuff around and so it wasn't ever going to be close, but they did at least attack Constantinople (with only half their stack while the other half wandered off, but sadly that's a common AI tactic).

 

[-Perceval-]

I think that the late game civilization are too well advantaged in comparison with the old one. with the french it is almost impossible to build notre dame!