RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[3Miro]

The Koran is a recipe for making the entire world Islamic, by force if necessary. The Bible is not... this is the key difference. In the medieval ages, Christians were behaving badly per the teachings of Christ; the Muslims were actually doing exactly what they were told to do by their messenger.

Christianity and Islam have one thing in common: They spread by force. As for the morality of the teachings of both religions, you can check out some of the Christopher Hitchens lectures on YouTube, basically they are all bad (Christ was hardly the most influential person for Christianity and that is assuming he exited ).

 

[3Miro]

But that doesn't kill the population, does it? (I don't remember, but I think it doesn't) Also, the AI doesn't seem to produce them, and certainly wouldn't bring a whole army.

There was a bug that has been fixed for the next version. The AI does build Prosecutors.

 

[kochman]

Christianity and Islam have one thing in common: They spread by force. As for the morality of the teachings of both religions, you can check out some of the Christopher Hitchens lectures on YouTube, basically they are all bad (Christ was hardly the most influential person for Christianity and that is assuming he exited ).

"Assuming"? There is more evidence he existed than Julius Caesar existed. It is not really disputed by any credible historian. For me, Christ is the most influential person in Christianity... I can't speak for everyone here.

Miro, your statement is just not accurate here regarding the spread of these two faiths
In the Middle Ages, Christianity was spread by force, to an extent (Eastern Europe Crusades and Iberian Reconquest), but not completely (it certainly wasn't spread by force in Ireland, Scandinavia, etc). Before and after the MA, it was usually spread by choice.
On the other hand, Islam was spread by the sword since day one, and it is still being spread through violence. There was never a period when this stopped being true... to this day.
Don't hear about a lot of forced conversions to Christianity these days, do you?

Christianity, for whatever wrong its followers have done in history, definitely has been a positive force in this world overall. Putting it on the same level as Islam is a total, complete joke.

 

[Panopticon]

As an outsider, this seems to be an unproductive discussion based on ideologically skewed priors on all sides with nothing to contribute to the development of RFC:Europe.

 

[3Miro]

As an outsider, this seems to be an unproductive discussion based on ideologically skewed priors on all sides with nothing to contribute to the development of RFC:Europe.

I agree. This is a very long and tedious discussion and belongs somewhere else since it has little bearing on RFCE.

 

[The Turk]

OK! First off I want to get one thing straight, yes I am Turkish, No I am not Muslim in fact I am Christian as well, so I am not being biased.
Now although you continue to say that Islam was spread by the "sword" this is actually really not the case, although the Arab people were spread by the "sword" as most civilizations were, Islam was pretty much completely optional to the inhabitants, but offered perks and in general was seen as God's last will (the last prophet Muhammad) that is why thousands of rural/poor people who were being oppressed by the Byzantine Orthodox Church which at the time was much, much more oppressive then Islam was (I'm Greek Orthodox by the way). And that is why so many people eagerly converted to "Gods" last testament, in fact many people just saw it as a continuation of Christianity rather then a whole new religion itself. This method of not forcibly converting the population as the "Arabs" spread was continued from Spain (southern France even) all the way up to Central Asia. And throughout a sense of toleration for all religions was carried out. Although you are right in some cases there was brief spates of religious hatred, under an Egyptian Caliph (I forgot his name ) he preached intolerance, and called for the destruction of the Church of the Nativity. The destruction of Church was a shock in horror to not only Europe (which led to the Crusades) but also across the Muslim World. After the Crazy Caliph was overthrown, the next Caliph had it rebuilt, and hired Byzantine help to do so. Actually if you want I can send you zip files (its 3 short movies) of this wonderful PBS documentary on the Islamic Caliphates. But PBS does a good job at portraying all sides of it, its part of there famous "Empire Series" the website is here:
http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/. Its really quite interesting and I'll send it to whom ever would like to see it, as it really is a very well done documentary. For my sources of all the information I have put down, that is the source, so none of this I'm "making up" so this is pretty much hard core evidence.

Ok now back to the wonderful mod of RFC Europe:
I just wanted to say, please take my suggestions into consideration, they can be found below in a spoiler, which took me forever to draft up. Also can 3Miro please explain what this "Defensive Crusade" is?

 

[Wessel V1]

Christianity, for whatever wrong its followers have done in history, definitely has been a positive force in this world overall. Putting it on the same level as Islam is a total, complete joke.

You know what you say here, right? It is not possible to judge a religion on it's positive or negative influence of the world (not even talking about our definition of "positive"). Technological advance had nothing to do with Christianity, neither with Islam. Both religions faced religious wars. Etcetera. In my opinion, both religions actually have had a certain negative influence on this world: extremists, people who can't stand other views. I don't think that Firaxis made a bad decision when they said that religion wouldn't be in civ 5.

If you know something about Dutch politics these days, you might know Geert Wilders. Same view.

 

[3Miro]

Also can 3Miro please explain what this "Defensive Crusade" is?

It is in the Civilopedia. Basically, if a Catholic player is at war with Muslim or Protestant (or Jewish) payer, then the Pope may call for a Defensive Crusade. The effect of the Crusade is that some units will spawn at the Catholic player's capital (with offensive AI tag set for the AI). The number of units depends on the Faith Points of the player and they are chosen from the best available mounted and infantry units.

 

[The Turk]

It is in the Civilopedia. Basically, if a Catholic player is at war with Muslim or Protestant (or Jewish) payer, then the Pope may call for a Defensive Crusade. The effect of the Crusade is that some units will spawn at the Catholic player's capital (with offensive AI tag set for the AI). The number of units depends on the Faith Points of the player and they are chosen from the best available mounted and infantry units.

Oh well I guess that's good, but I'm suggesting something a bit more historically inclined towards the Spanish. If you have noticed the Cordobans never actually invade North Western Spain and just continue heading North East instead (which is VERY good), what ends up happening, is that the Spanish get holed up into a tiny area and become very weak and stop expanding. So I'm saying that at a specific date (sometime in the 1300-1400's) there should be a reconquista event which spawns good units AND religious persecutors, and also the event makes you declare war against the Cordobans (this is also for Portugal btw, but they don't seem to have as much of a problem) and that way the Spanish AI will be able to reunite Spain under one flag and Religion.

 

[kochman]

Now although you continue to say that Islam was spread by the "sword" this is actually really not the case

Keep believing that all you want, it's not true. I am Orthodox too, and as an Orthodox, I would expect you to be more aware of these things than you appear to be. Perhaps the sources in Ankara aren't as clear/free/whatever... perhaps the historians were killed in the Armenian Genocide?

One of my sources, by the way, is the Koran, which does clearly dictate how these things are done.

But... rather than carry on publicly, feel free to PM me and we can discuss this more in detail.

 

[kochman]

If you know something about Dutch politics these days, you might know Geert Wilders. Same view.

Geert Wilders is correct. You can tell you are on the right track when the people you criticize threaten en masse to kill you for it and you have to be protected by your state (like Roberto Saviano in Italy, who exposed so much about the Camorra).

I mean, people criticize each other all the time in other cultures, and we don't face death threats and need state protection for it. Cartoons do not excuse violence, for example. While most religions have extremists, only one has an extremist doctrine. It's all in the Koran, the calls for beheading the infidel, seeking them out and destroying them, etc. Read the book.

Good luck to Geert in the coming election! I understand his party is supposed to do even better in Holland than it has previously. Hopefully what happened to "Pim" Fortuyn doesn't happen to him.

EDIT:

Technological advance had nothing to do with Christianity, neither with Islam.

Just saw this...
This is also completely untrue, feel free to PM me about it... rather than continue on about it here.

 

[3Miro]

Oh well I guess that's good, but I'm suggesting something a bit more historically inclined towards the Spanish. If you have noticed the Cordobans never actually invade North Western Spain and just continue heading North East instead (which is VERY good), what ends up happening, is that the Spanish get holed up into a tiny area and become very weak and stop expanding. So I'm saying that at a specific date (sometime in the 1300-1400's) there should be a reconquista event which spawns good units AND religious persecutors, and also the event makes you declare war against the Cordobans (this is also for Portugal btw, but they don't seem to have as much of a problem) and that way the Spanish AI will be able to reunite Spain under one flag and Religion.

When I coded the defensive Crusades I did use the reconquista as an example. Starting from the late 900s, the Catholic church starts to give indulgences for killing Muslims and that is when the defensive Crusades become active. In recent games Spain was actually able to get all of Iberia (except Portugal of course), so I think Crusades and forced wars are a better way to do this than to give a specific event.

 

[kochman]

In my most recent game Spain has taken all but Portugal. The Cordobans had collapsed though, so it wasn't empire versus empire, making Spain's mission easier.

That being said, I have yet to see any AI come close to achieving their victory conditions.

 

[3Miro]

In my most recent game Spain has taken all but Portugal. The Cordobans had collapsed though, so it wasn't empire versus empire, making Spain's mission easier.

That being said, I have yet to see any AI come close to achieving their victory conditions.

If the UHV is doable by the AI, then it is a very easy UHV. Considering the fact that some victories come much earlier than others, it would be very unfair for the player if the Kiev AI was to be successful before the Dutch even spawned. In regular RFC, only Japan's AI has a reasonable chance of getting all 3/3, the others were a big exception.

 

[kochman]

Would an AIs UHV automatically stop the game? Couldn't that be changed?

"Just one more turn..."

I understand that this would take away the incentives to stop the AI from achieving their UHVs, but the complete absence of any chance of an AI UHV does that same...

 

[The Turk]

In my most recent game Spain has taken all but Portugal. The Cordobans had collapsed though, so it wasn't empire versus empire, making Spain's mission easier.

That being said, I have yet to see any AI come close to achieving their victory conditions.

ditto, but I'm suprised thats happened, in all the games I've played they haven't taken anything back (except for one or two cities in the North, but they never expand southward, thats why I propose the very Spanish specific "Reconquista" event.

 

[kochman]

I have definitely had games where Spain turtled up, even when facing a fractured and independent Andulusia region in the south. most games have been like that in fact, when I spawned as the Dutch.
I do like that in this game, history doesn't repeat itself every time.

 

[3Miro]

Would an AIs UHV automatically stop the game? Couldn't that be changed?

"Just one more turn..."

I understand that this would take away the incentives to stop the AI from achieving their UHVs, but the complete absence of any chance of an AI UHV does that same...

The winning 3/3 UHV means that you lost the game. This is just as in the case of someone else launching a spaceship in regular civ.

 

[JediClemente]

kochman, I'm not ordering you to talk or not to talk about anything. I just feel free to express my opinion about your words, same as you do about others (it's called freedom of speech).

This is a mod for a game. Relax. It's not a neverending battle between good and evil.

I will just add this: have you even spoken to a muslim? Beware, you may learn he's a person just like you, that wants to live his life the best he can, doesn't take a text from centuries ago literally and doesn't want to impose his views on others.

 

[kochman]

Jedi, not sure why you have chosen to re-engage me on this after I have asked people to PM me if they want to discuss it further, and not that I owe you an answer to your sanctimonious question with sarcastic statement intact; but I will give it to you, to shut you up and get you off of your undeserved high horse...

I have lived 2 years of my life in the Middle East, and I have been to several countries (including Israel which was the best by 1000% percent) in the region. During this time I had co-workers and friends who were muslims. I still have muslim friends while not in the Middle East. I have no problem with individual muslims.
Furthermore, I am willing to bet I have been in more places and done more things that you can even dream.

What I can't stand is the religion of Islam, based on the Koran which is a recipe for world subjugation. I will not stand by, anywhere, while people say Islam is no worse than any other religion. I will fill free to practice my free speech, and I certainly don't need your definition of it.
If you want to continue this, as I have said, feel free to PM me...