RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[micbic]

IMO if we want to keep the independents this powerful as a force we need more than 2 independent groups. When I move to take Milan, the indies in the Baltic shouldn't get mad at me In RFC there are 4 IIRC. Perhaps in this case they could be regional? Italian, Germanic, Slavic and eastern?

IMHO, if a such ''dividation" is in cards, I would propose the following, if there are enough slots:

1) Visigoths (Spanish Indies, Bordeos, Tolosa, Marsel)
2) Vandals (All the Northern African plus Catania)
3) Ostrogoths (Italian except Rome, Ragusa, Belgrad)
4) Avars (Samara, Kazan, Astrakhan, Kharkov)
5) Celts (Britain and rest of France)
6) Germanic (Augsburg, Leipzig, Lubeck, Tonsberg, Prag)
7) Slavic (Gdansk, Riga, Minsk, all Russian)

If there is any ''Minor Civ mod'' out there, we could use it (copyrighted, of course)Get each of them a -100% research modifier and we are done.

Hope I don't ask too much...

 

[Whitefire]

Adding that many more civs is going to slow down the mod.

 

[micbic]

Adding that many more civs is going to slow down the mod.

1) I mean not-playable civs.
2) They will slow down the mod as ''minors'', but not as ''indies''? They won't be able to build new cities, they will spawn as normal indies, they will behave like normal indies, but instead of the irrelative two indies, we will have some area-based indie groups, so as Gdansk doesn't attack me after capturing Tunis

 

[Hitti-Litti]

My idea for a colonial victory is, that it could replace the space race. The first to control all the colonial national wonders and at least X amount of colonial world wonders(Aztec Conquest, Inca Conquest, Domination of Indian Ocean) wins. Fighting for the world wonders could spark some nice wars in Europe.

I also have an idea for a commercial victory: if a nation has for example 4 of the 5 wealthiest cities in the world, the nation wins. That could give a chance to victory for smaller nations like Genoa and Venice, as they could use their financial UPs to get wealthier cities.

Another idea I got about victories is a victory I would call a geographical victory. If a nation controls a certain region of land, it wins the game. For example Spain should control all Iberia, France, Morocco and Italy. As a conquest victory or a domination victory will likely be at least almost impossible in RFCE, this could be a good replacement for them, this is a way to get a militaristic victory.

Any thoughts about my ideas?

 

[sedna17]

I don't think adding new indy civs is in the cards. There are lots of places in the code that make the assumption that there are two groups of "independents". RFC also has Celts and Natives, it's true, and it might be possible to repurpose those to increase the independent diversity.

This is entirely up to 3Miro, since it's partly/mostly a C++/DLL issue. I think we can greatly improve the behavior of independents under the current constraints. Just give me a chance...

 

[Whitefire]

1) I mean not-playable civs.
2) They will slow down the mod as ''minors'', but not as ''indies''? They won't be able to build new cities, they will spawn as normal indies, they will behave like normal indies, but instead of the irrelative two indies, we will have some area-based indie groups, so as Gdansk doesn't attack me after capturing Tunis

Well, every time you add a civ to RFC, you add in a number of python checks that the engine goes through. Also, you add in another "turn" where the AI has to "think" about what it wants to do. Add those together and you slow down the mod. More so in the late game since there are more units and more possible wars for the indie AI to "think" about. Make sense?

 

[micbic]

Yes, but for one exception: As the game slows down, so lessen the indies.
@sedna17: I don't mean that this is the only way of fixing the problem. If you can fix it, it is much preferable to get it corrected under the current constraints.

 

[st.lucifer]

Yes, but for one exception: As the game slows down, so lessen the indies.
@sedna17: I don't mean that this is the only way of fixing the problem. If you can fix it, it is much preferable to get it corrected under the current constraints.

It's just not possible to add that many new civs and have a playable game. We kicked around a variant of this idea for a long time, but two Independents is fine (and not knowing which city belongs to which is also fine - it introduces some level of risk in trying to take an independent city).

If Whitefire's proposed independent UP is viable, that seems like a great solution - eliminate the headache with a single action (short of decapitation) rather than a dozen treatments with potential side effects.

 

[micbic]

OK. One good (colonial victory) and one bad (this build of indies) idea for today. Not bad...

 

[Cethegus]

My idea for a colonial victory is, that it could replace the space race. The first to control all the colonial national wonders and at least X amount of colonial world wonders(Aztec Conquest, Inca Conquest, Domination of Indian Ocean) wins. Fighting for the world wonders could spark some nice wars in Europe.

This is a good idea. While I don't like the sound of colonies changing hands when the city their HQ is established in is conquered, I think this would add much more well wanted depth into the game. Much more so if the Conquest Wonders simply symbolize the riches stolen from the American natives. Also, I have to admit "Control all Colonial wonders" sounds very good as a victory condition, too.

Good idea, Hitti-Litti.

I also have an idea for a commercial victory: if a nation has for example 4 of the 5 wealthiest cities in the world, the nation wins. That could give a chance to victory for smaller nations like Genoa and Venice, as they could use their financial UPs to get wealthier cities.

If the cities' "richness" is measured solely with commerce alone, when should this condition come into play, then? If it's enabled right from the gip go, Byzantium will most likely win the game before a rivalling civ has the chance to even spawn. I don't object the commerce-measurement idea (centers of culture and science were always very rich places) but shouldn't it have other requirements also? Like a solid number of for every city under control, as much as I hate the idea? That would post-pone Byzantium's economical victory without being scripted to be enabled only from turn 50 onwards for example and would even it out for smaller civs at the same time.

While I like economical victory condition it has to be thought over carefully. One question I have regarding the city matter is that if you control 4-5 of the known world's richest cities, you will most likely become the scientific leader. Will this be a problem? And what about the civs that are usually very small, such as Netherlands? Do they have space or firepower to expand or conquer 3-4 additional super-cities?

Another idea I got about victories is a victory I would call a geographical victory. If a nation controls a certain region of land, it wins the game. For example Spain should control all Iberia, France, Morocco and Italy. As a conquest victory or a domination victory will likely be at least almost impossible in RFCE, this could be a good replacement for them, this is a way to get a militaristic victory.

Any thoughts about my ideas?

I don't like your suggestion how this would be pulled off in practice but it would be a worthwhile replacement for conquest/domination victory. I have no ideas for it at the moment.

OK. One good (colonial victory) and one bad (this build of indies) idea for today. Not bad...

Pretty much so, as much as I liked the Indies suggestion.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

While I like economical victory condition it has to be thought over carefully. One question I have regarding the city matter is that if you control 4-5 of the known world's richest cities, you will most likely become the scientific leader. Will this be a problem? And what about the civs that are usually very small, such as Netherlands? Do they have space or firepower to expand or conquer 3-4 additional super-cities?

Oh yeah, I forgot about Netherlands and other small nations... Well, I'll think about that problem later, maybe.

 

[3Miro]

At some point of time we may look at adding three indies, but not "ethnic" for sure (having Slavic, Italian or whatever groups of indies make no sense and would not work). One of the biggest problems for the indies is Rome. Rome eventually would be a separate player. Right now, one could decrease the number of staring units in Rome (I just did not what to make it an easy early catch). Many of early indy SOD come from Rome.

Research rate, Production rate and maintenance for each individual civ could be tweaked arbitrarily. (also growth, AFAIK there has been no modification on the city growth rate, also inflation)

There are fewer victory conditions than in regular civ simply because time does not end in 1800AD. I think the score victory (which should be working) is very appropriate as generic victory condition.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

Anyone else having trouble starting a late game civ on the newest version (Dec. 14th)? My computer, which normally handles even late Rhye's games with grace and almost no memory crashes, can't start a Swedish game without crashing while trying to get through the auto-turns.

 

[jessiecat]

A quick report from my latest test of the latest version (Dec. 14). Playing as Cordoba on Monarch, a good start. Flipped Valencia (as normal) and captured Barcino. Added two Berber cav by WB and captured Tangier and razed Marrakesh. A short war when Spain spawned but peace now. Easier now as there is no Pamplona. Built Theodosian Walls and Leaning Tower. Indies have built no wonders except St. Peters in Rome. Now 1020AD and things are looking good.

Opened WB and checked everybody out. Sedna's changes have made a huge difference to the Indies. In fact there's very few of them left outside of Russia and Italy. A few barbs about but no hordes yet but here's what has happened to the Indies.

Lubeck - razed by the Norse
Prague - captured by the Norse (eh???)
Tonsberg - hasn't flipped to the Norse yet
Milan -razed by the Venetians (eh???)
Florence -razed by the Venetians(eh???)
Beograd - captured by the Venetians (what???)
Tours -captured by the Franks
Nantes -captured by the Franks
Valencia -flipped by Cordoba
Toledo -captured by Cordoba
Barcino -captured by Cordoba
Toulouse -captured by Burgundy
Marseilles -captured by Burgundy
Augsburg - razed by Burgundy (eh???)
Breslau -flipped by the Polish (as normal)
Kharkov - flipped by the Kievans """
Smolensk -flipped by the Moscovans """
Samarra -flipped by the Moscovans """
plus the usual 2 flipped by Arabia.

Have we gone too far, folks? Have the indies gone from dangers to doormats?

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Could we do so that Independent 1 would be the tough independents, and Independent 2 would be the doormats? Cities that flip would be of course Independent 2, cities like Beograd, Florence and Milan would be Independent 1.

 

[jessiecat]

Could we do so that Independent 1 would be the tough independents, and Independent 2 would be the doormats? Cities that flip would be of course Independent 2, cities like Beograd, Florence and Milan would be Independent 1.

No. It's a matter of balance. I think the answer is that the indies start with enough troops to resist any early attack. Maybe a couple of archers and axemen (2 of each) in place when they spawn? Their tech rate is slower and their costs greater now so they won't be able to build vast advanced armies anymore.

 

[sedna17]

Anyone else having trouble starting a late game civ on the newest version (Dec. 14th)? My computer, which normally handles even late Rhye's games with grace and almost no memory crashes, can't start a Swedish game without crashing while trying to get through the auto-turns.

Can you post the last autosave before a crash? Or the contents of ~My Documents/My Games/Beyond the Sword/Logs/ ?

Could be we have too much stuff on the board at that point. Could be some other random bug.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

Can you post the last autosave before a crash? Or the contents of ~My Documents/My Games/Beyond the Sword/Logs/ ?

Could be we have too much stuff on the board at that point. Could be some other random bug.

It won't let me post the log because it's a .log file. I tried saving it as text but it still wouldn't work. *EDIT: Log files have been posted.* However, I will post the autosave. I think the game crashed about 40-50 turns before the Swedish Autostart, just a few minutes after the 1392 autosave.

 

[micbic]

@kaiserbenjamin: post it as a .rar file

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

It won't let me post the log because it's a .log file. I tried saving it as text but it still wouldn't work. *EDIT: Log files have been posted.* However, I will post the autosave. I think the game crashed about 40-50 turns before the Swedish Autostart, just a few minutes after the 1392 autosave.

@kaiserbenjamin: post it as a .rar file

How obvious. Good suggestion, it's been done.