RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[AnotherPacifist]

That was true in real life though--all those proto-Russian states were vassals of the Mongols at one time or another. I would however suggest decreasing the Keshik's strength to 10 only just to let the AI have a chance.

 

[cheesemijit]

Can you post a saved game (the autosave at 1596 would be fine) so I can diagnose the bug?

sorry i was too quick to start another game, i am at 1568 now though so if the porblem occurs again i will post

EDIT: got to 1600 as england and it worked fine, not sure what caused it to crash before but it doesnt seem to be a major problem. as i said before, great mod!

 

[jessiecat]

That was true in real life though--all those proto-Russian states were vassals of the Mongols at one time or another. I would however suggest decreasing the Keshik's strength to 10 only just to let the AI have a chance.

I think that rather than weakening the Keshiks we should considerably shorten the timespan of the Mongol spawn. In reality, the Mongol invasions of Russia, Hungary and Poland lasted less than 40 years esp, after the Great Khan Ogedei died in 1241 and all the commanders were recalled home to elect a successor. In our game, however, we've got them spawning for over 80 years and as late as 1320.. Same with the Seljuk invasion of Anatolia which also only lasted for less than 10 years, ie. 1064-1071. Yet we've got them attacking the Arabs for at least 50 years.
I propose very strong spawns of less than 20 turns, about 1240-1280 for the Mongols and 1060-1080 for the Seljuks. What do people think of that?

 

[sedna17]

Sorry to do a multi-response post again:

@Operfantom: Glad you're having a good time. I haven't played the Hungarian UHVs lately, so your report is very useful -- it sounds like these goals are working out pretty well.

@General Toad: We don't purposefully have Austria start off too weak. If other people feel this same way we may have to increase their power on spawn -- but it might we rather situation-dependent.

@Mongols, etc: I agree that historically the Mongol invasions could be shorter, although there's some aspect of alternate history at work here, if Kiev hadn't fallen, would the Mongol attacks on this state have continued for longer? we shorten the duration we will have to decrease the total number of Mongols that spawn, or it will be a lot more difficult. Much the same applies for the Seljuks -- in reality their empire lasted quite some time, which is not well modeled by having them be barb attacks -- but I'm willing to shorten and weaken both invasions and people can see what they think.

 

[Michael Vick]

Just finished a game as Portugal on Monarch. I can tell you that that is the easiest game of RFCEurope I have played yet.

For the first goal, I STARTED with more gold and techs than Spain, and it really wasn't a problem to hold on to that lead.

Now the second goal: "Do not lose a city before 1700 AD"; most of the independents in the area get taken out pretty quickly, there is NO barbarian threat whatsoever, Spain is very friendly, which only leaves Cordoba. Cordoba has always had low stability when the Portuguese spawned, and in the case of conflict, they rarely stand a chance against the Portuguese knights of aviz. Take them out, or just keep on good terms, and that goal is guaranteed.

The third goal is to build three colonial projects. With no attention needed anywhere else, all I did was build wonders and improve my productivity, as soon as the shipbuilding tech came along, I just coasted to victory.

You pretty much just have to turtle, keep a decent economy, and you win.

Now here is my solution, lets get rid of the second goal. We could replace it with something that requires expansion beyond Portugal, like "In 1600AD, control the Azores, Madeiras, and Western Sahara" This will prevent the civ from just turtling, and will be an incentive for other civs to get involved in Africa. It would be nice to finally see something happening in the usually deserted areas I named. So what do you think, guys? could we try it in the next version?

 

[Samsa]

You've must been VERY lucky! I tried Portugal myself several times. And yes in the beginning you have a lead in gold and techs. But in all my games spain ignites their afterburner at a several point and easily catches up and passes by in techs. So i never stood any chance unlike i thought in the beginning. I'm not sure what causes this incredible research rate but i think if spain gets Pamplona(doesn't need to be Pamplona but the city around there, also the city above there at the coast is quite good) and Barcelona running they really outtech everyone else.
But your right with the last two UHVs, the Knight of Avis is probably the best unit in this mod and u simply cant loose a city with them.

My easiest game i had was with the Turks/Ottoman Empire. Just a little consolidate span to get infrastructure running, and pump units afterwards. With the great bombards and Pikemen your nearly unbeatable.

 

[kbk]

Sorry to do a multi-response post again:
@General Toad: We don't purposefully have Austria start off too weak. If other people feel this same way we may have to increase their power on spawn -- but it might we rather situation-dependent.

While Austria does start out weak, I've had no problem flying under the radar of Germany and Poland, and using the intense mongol barbarian invasions to take control of the Carpathian basin and take out Hungary. Its actually not too hard to be one of the, if not the most massive nation-states in Europe. However, I do have problems getting vassals. There aren't civilizations like the Inca, Aztec, Mali and Khmer in RFC that will almost always be someone's vassal. Its also fairly difficult to manage to get a civ to capitulate without collapsing. I've not yet accomplished this part.

As for the third UHV, getting 2 defensive pacts is a completely trivial requirement.

I'd like to see the 2nd UHV reduced to potentially requiring 2 Vassals, or to remain 3 and get pushed back to just before the French Revolution. The third UHV could changed to something particularly challenging, especially if you reduce the 2nd requirement to 2 vassals. I'm not sure what this could be changed to yet.

 

[Jaja]

Agreed, Austria can become huger than huge, there's just a huge powervacuum in eastern europe where you can move in after the byzantines are collapsed and the bulgarians sufficently weakened by the mongols or something else.

in all my games spain ignites their afterburner at a several point and easily catches up and passes by in techs. So i never stood any chance unlike i thought in the beginning. I'm not sure what causes this incredible research rate but i think if spain gets Pamplona(doesn't need to be Pamplona but the city around there, also the city above there at the coast is quite good) and Barcelona running they really outtech everyone else.

Agreed, the spanish just run away from everyone except maybe Germany and England lest something happens, and the thing is nothing ever happens on the iberian peninsula in my experience. It's just a question of whether Spain conquer Portugal (which means they'll be completly up in the clouds compared to everyone else) or they don't at which point they'll still be way up there in the tech lead. NURF?!

 

[sedna17]

... and the thing is nothing ever happens on the iberian peninsula in my experience.

Seriously. Currently the Spanish, alone of the early-rising civs, have "modern" production/research rates.

Okay, here's a crazy idea, what if we have "Spain" start later? Currently, at 720, it starts off as the Kingdom of Asturias, but this is certainly the earliest possible date for it to start, and Spain was not a unified kingdom for a long time. We could move it to 1070-1080, corresponding the second union of Castille and Leon, and putting Toledo in the spawn zone. That allows Cordoba to have it's period of glory extended a little longer (we'd have barbs and indys to represent the Christian kingdoms before then) but lose a chunk of its territory to the rising Spanish. The Spanish can keep their production/research rates without such a head-start on infrastructure.

Another option would be 1230, for the final union of Castille and Leon, but that would be rather late (and after Portugal).

 

[Samsa]

Seriously. Currently the Spanish, alone of the early-rising civs, have "modern" production/research rates.

Okay, here's a crazy idea, what if we have "Spain" start later? Currently, at 720, it starts off as the Kingdom of Asturias, but this is certainly the earliest possible date for it to start, and Spain was not a unified kingdom for a long time. We could move it to 1070-1080, corresponding the second union of Castille and Leon, and putting Toledo in the spawn zone. That allows Cordoba to have it's period of glory extended a little longer (we'd have barbs and indys to represent the Christian kingdoms before then) but lose a chunk of its territory to the rising Spanish. The Spanish can keep their production/research rates without such a head-start on infrastructure.

Another option would be 1230, for the final union of Castille and Leon, but that would be rather late (and after Portugal).

I really like the idea to let spain spawn later on. Your suggested date around 1080 would match Spains big deal capturing Toledo. But it might be to close to Portugals spawn, anyhow i'm not sure wich date would fit as good as yours Close before 1000 might be a great date, cause the Muslims destroyed Santiago wich was holding the reliquiary of Saint James, spains patron!
The time before Spain spawns, and the Reconquista already took its course should be represented by barbs? It will match the christian non unified status and leaves Cordoba busy.

 

[jessiecat]

I like the later start for Spain as well. Historically, the 1080s are a fascinating period.

Following the union of Castille and Leon by Alfonso VI and the capture of Toledo in 1085, you have the Muslim taifa states calling in the Almoravid Berbers under Yusuf ibn Tashfin who defeats Alfonso at the Battle of Zallaca near Badajoz in 1086. Rodorigo de Bivar (El Cid) dies defending Valencia and the following century marks a seesaw struggle between Castille and the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties as the Reconquista gathers momentum.
An ideal spawn time for Spain might be 1030 marking the breakup of the Caliphate of Cordoba into squabbling taifa kingdoms. We could represent this by increasing instability for Cordoba after 1030 with Toledo flipping to Spain about 1080. Maybe also a collapse of Cordoba after Toledo falls and a respawn as the Almohad dynasty based at Marrakesh about 1100, if that can be coded.

 

[Michael Vick]

I still like the 720 spawn. It marks the beginning of the unified, Spanish speaking nation. I don't think Spain should have it so easy as to just spawn and have a third of Iberia be immediately theirs, with their only opposition being a dying Cordoba or a mass of indy cities to be easily taken out one by one. With a start at 720, Spain has to struggle to catch up with the large Cordoba, and slowly but surely expand to take up the territory that they did at the end of the reconquista.

I brought this up to discuss the Portugues UHV's, not to change the Spain spawn date. What do you guys think of changing one of their goals to something like- Control the Azores, Madeira, and Western Sahara by 1600AD?

 

[merijn_v1]

I like the 1080 too. But does the 2nd UHV of Portugal become too easy then? Or will that one be changed?

 

[Michael Vick]

I like the 1080 too. But does the 2nd UHV of Portugal become too easy then? Or will that one be changed?

Why 1080??? The Christians fought and captured Toledo in 1065, they didn't just have it flip to them!

The second UHV can be changed to what I suggested.

 

[jessiecat]

Why 1080??? The Christians fought and captured Toledo in 1065, they didn't just have it flip to them!

The second UHV can be changed to what I suggested.

Try May 25 1085 when after a brief siege Alfonso VI entered Toledo at the invitation of the inhabitants, if you want to be accurate. So more acquired than fought for, wouldn't you say?

 

[merijn_v1]

Why 1080??? The Christians fought and captured Toledo in 1065, they didn't just have it flip to them!

I just said 1080 because the others said it. I don't mind if its 1080 or 1050 or anything else in that peroid. But because I don't know much of the history of Spain, it's up to you guys to decide the exact spawn date.

 

[Michael Vick]

Try May 25 1085 when after a brief siege Alfonso VI entered Toledo at the invitation of the inhabitants, if you want to be accurate. So more acquired than fought for, wouldn't you say?

LOL I guess... What if we had Spain start at 720, like always, but Toledo flipped at 1085? Can that be coded?

 

[micbic]

Time-coding flips seems like an excellent idea, but I don't know its codability and I also think that if Toledo flipped to Spain, the Spanish game would be a walkover.
I seem to also favor a late Spanish start, and moving even later Portugal (1200?)
I also miss Aragon in this mod. If the Spanish are supposed to cover them, they should expand more towards Sardinia and Sicily.
If the Burgundy spawn date changes too (840?), it may be actually possible to recreate the battle of Poitiers...

 

[Verily]

Time-coding flips seems like an excellent idea, but I don't know its codability and I also think that if Toledo flipped to Spain, the Spanish game would be a walkover.
I seem to also favor a late Spanish start, and moving even later Portugal (1200?)
I also miss Aragon in this mod. If the Spanish are supposed to cover them, they should expand more towards Sardinia and Sicily.
If the Burgundy spawn date changes too (840?), it may be actually possible to recreate the battle of Poitiers...

As I recall, it was going to be very difficult to change Burgundy's spawn date because they're the first civilization in the coding. Which is unfortunate because it would be great to model the Frankish kingdom in the early game to make France's play much more dynamic.

 

[Michael Vick]

I guess it's too late to ask for an Aragonese civ...
This timed flip idea is really interesting though, someone should look into the possibilities. BTW, keep Spain in 720? Please?