RFC Europe UHV

[3Miro]

The Hungarian UHV counts the tiles owned by each nation in "Europe". It excludes Africa and Middle East, so Arabia can bet Hungary if Arabia spears into Europe (i.e. the Balkans).

 

[jessiecat]

The Hungarian UHV counts the tiles owned by each nation in "Europe". It excludes Africa and Middle East, so Arabia can bet Hungary if Arabia spears into Europe (i.e. the Balkans).

I understand that. So why can't it be the same for Poland? Not counting Africa and the Middle East, I mean?

 

[Myri]

Venezia: Have 7 harbours (useful coastal cities) and 13 galleas (tech, production and money) by 1330 (maybe 1350, 1370, has to be tested) would be a nice UHV that sure can be coded (it's a quest in RFC) and reflects the position of Venizia.

If you can't / won't count the arabian, byzanz, ottoman population in europe for the Poland UHV rename it to "have the most population in 1540" and the bug is gone. Having more population than Arabia is easy enough, actually so easy that Poland misses a single difficult UHV.

bye Myri

 

[jessiecat]

Venezia: Have 7 harbours (useful coastal cities) and 13 galleas (tech, production and money) by 1330 (maybe 1350, 1370, has to be tested) would be a nice UHV that sure can be coded (it's a quest in RFC) and reflects the position of Venizia.

If you can't / won't count the arabian, byzanz, ottoman population in europe for the Poland UHV rename it to "have the most population in 1540" and the bug is gone. Having more population than Arabia is easy enough, actually so easy that Poland misses a single difficult UHV.

bye Myri

Whichever way we count it, it should be the same for Hungary and Poland.

Anyway, I've been testing Venice and come up with an idea for the 3 UHVs. I've tried this and its doable on Monarch although you have to tech pretty fast to Shipbuilding and Banking to get the 3rd. one. But it reflects Venice's financial power and requires you to build their UB, the Arsenal (shipyard).

1. Control Constantinople and 1 city in Greece in 1300AD.

2. Control the Dalmatian coast, Sicily, Crete and Cyprus in 1400AD.

3. Build 6 Arsenals and 6 Banks by 1500AD.

What do people think of this?

 

[merijn_v1]

Whichever way we count it, it should be the same for Hungary and Poland.

Anyway, I've been testing Venice and come up with an idea for the 3 UHVs. I've tried this and its doable on Monarch although you have to tech pretty fast to Shipbuilding and Banking to get the 3rd. one. But it reflects Venice's financial power and requires you to build their UB, the Arsenal (shipyard).

1. Control Constantinople and 1 city in Greece in 1300AD.

2. Control the Dalmatian coast, Sicily, Crete and Cyprus in 1400AD.

3. Build 6 Arsenals and 6 Banks by 1500AD.

What do people think of this?

I like it. And Rhodos could be implanted in the 2nd UHV, if you like it.

 

[micbic]

I only disagree with Sicily. I would prefer it to be replaced by either Corfu or Rhodes, even both of them. On the others I agree it is definitely a step up.

 

[Myri]

I disagree with 1500, far to easy. Shipbuilding has very few prereqs, you can have in 1300 at emporer. One prereq of shipbuilding is banking, so you will build the banks while you research shipbuilding, nothing to achieve, you barely can avoid.

bye Myri

 

[jessiecat]

I disagree with 1500, far to easy. Shipbuilding has very few prereqs, you can have in 1300 at emporer. One prereq of shipbuilding is banking, so you will build the banks while you research shipbuilding, nothing to achieve, you barely can avoid.

bye Myri

I agree that Rhodes could be left in rather than Sicily as it's more historic. But I think the 3rd UHV should be 1500 for several reasons. Firstly, "by 1500" doesn't stop the Monarch player from accomplishing it earlier and getting a higher score. Secondly, we judge a UHV victory on how hard it is for Monarch players. Emperor players will always do everything so much quicker but most people won't be playing at Emperor, will they? Third, the longer timespan allows people to enjoy the game for longer if they wish. And enjoyable gameplay is really the point after all, isn't it? Not just how fast you can win at a particular level.

EDIT To myri and AP (or anyone). Here's your challenge. Let's see how quickly you can achieve all 3 proposed UHVs at Emperor. By 1400? By 1300? Even earlier? I'd love to see a screenshot and saved game. OK?

 

[Myri]

RFC UHVs: You can win earlier if you follow a plan, achieve something, play well.
some RFCE UHVs like your 1500: You will win earlier because you are around.

A 1500 UHV for Venezia is fine, but the last UHV should not be something you get just because you are around. Venezia only needs 11 techs to build 6 arsenals (and banks), no reason to focus on that, just be around and you will have in 1500.

The Norse have nice UHVs, they really have to do something to win, all civs need such UHVs, do something, not just be around.

bye Myri

 

[jessiecat]

I agree with you. I tried to make the 3rd UHV tech-based and achievable for the average player. Can you suggest one that will give them more to do than just focus on research or conquering?

EDIT: Like maybe build something historically specific to them. Maybe the Basilica San Marco and 6 Arsenals?

 

[merijn_v1]

EDIT: Like maybe build something historically specific to them. Maybe the Basilica San Marco and 6 Arsenals?

And Banks IMO.

 

[jessiecat]

And Banks IMO.

So revise to:

3. Build the Basilica San Marco, 6 Arsenals and 6 Banks.

OK?

 

[Wessel V1]

I share myri's view on having to achieve something to accomplish something (from the very beginning). To be honest, I think that some UHVs may lack some creativity; don't feel blamed as I haven't contributed to that much on that eiter. But, since the map has a different base from the map used in RFC (our map has much more land), we could come up with some very different goals. Here's a list of what could be possible, and since I lack historical knowledge to assign them to specific civilizations, feel free to do that. Some might create unhistorical situation (e.g. the first), but they create more replayability as they can be achieved in multiple ways.

- In stead of "settle these territories by X AD", why not "settle on at least 10 different islands?" Portugal settling the Azores is historical, but wouldn't it be just as much fun to decide to settle Sicily, Ireland, Cyprus, some of the Azores and the Greek islands? At least, there are more possible combinations.
- Secure a monopoly / have a number of Y on resource X. For example, there are whales near Norway, Spain, the Azores, Ireland and Scotland. With the exception of Spain, all access points can be settled or relatively easily conquered. It could be an ahistorical alternative for a Portuguese UHV, or just a challenge. The same thing could be said about olives. Arabia is, even with the crusades, too hard to conquer, but the others are possible; Cordoba usually doesn't survive.
- The cathedral goal is a goal that I found a little strange. In my last game as Kiev, I remembered about it in 1370, so I had 20 turns left to build a monastery, some churches and 2 cathedrals; I barely made it. The point is, that I could also have done that much earlier, but I must admit that the way I did it (and the way it is in RFC) was more exciting. The goal is not bad at all, but we must find something suitable. There is only one religion to be founded, which is Protestantism and that religion is currently founded by Sweden in 1500 AD (they have too many techs IMO). So, we could ask the player to complete 2 or 3 cathedrals (depending on the civilization), and possibly x4 monasteries by 1560 AD, or whatever is appropriate, since most developed cities can build these in no time. I'm aware of the possible exploit that all catholic buildings are converted, so that there would be no real difference. No idea how to fix this yet, but if you guys like it, I'm sure someone comes up with an idea.

That's it for now, I hope you like them / find them useful.

 

[merijn_v1]

So revise to:

3. Build the Basilica San Marco, 6 Arsenals and 6 Banks.

OK?

 

[Myri]

Basilica is good, so you can't wait forever. Add Medici Banks? Much less likely you will win just because you are around You can add the banks for the flavour, it's just nothing to achieve, you will have the banks when you build the arsenals.

Agree with Wessel, everything you actually have to achieve something is fine.

bye Myri

 

[micbic]

Just thinking out a face-lifted French UHV:
1) REX time! 6 cities out by 800 AD
2) Control the historic French territory by 1475 AD
3) Grab the Notre Dame, the Versailles, Louisiana, Quebec and 2 other colonial projects of your choice by 1750 AD.
This way, we have the player 'roleplay' part of early Frankian Kingdom, while toning the difficulty a bit up.
Thoughts/objections on that?

 

[3Miro]

I like the REX idea as well as the wonders. However, I believe the colonies should be arbitrary. That is, build any 4 - 6 colonial projects. I don't see why France should fail if they get Virginia and New England instead of Louisiana and Quebec.

 

[micbic]

I don't see why France should fail if they get Virginia and New England instead of Louisiana and Quebec.

Umm...maybe because the French founded colonies at Louisiana and Quebec in RL? Anyway, I think making the player build specific colonies makes the case even more difficult (specific research path + I-must-get-there-first). To leave some place for alt-history, the French can build 2 other whatever colonies. So this is a hybrid of accurate and arbitary.

 

[3Miro]

OK I see your point, but let me add couple of things:

1. The mod is Eurocentric and I don't see European histrory changed much if Louisiana was French or English, the difference would have been if the French never became a colonial power. That is why I don't think picking individual colonies is relevant.

2. Another point, from a purely gameplay view, a goof French player is likely to be ahead in tech and thus get a lot of early colonies. It would be very frustrating if one has 6 colonies, but fails the UHV because he did not get Louisiana in particular.

I only think picking a specific colony is restrictive.

 

[micbic]

Okay: I agree to the Eurocentric thing, and I concede the point, as regards 1 at least.
Now, as regards 2, it is similarly frustrating if eg the Cordoba player had built 5 wonders, but not the Gardens of Al-Andalus.