RFC Europe Wonders

[sedna17]

After the above discussions can I summarize what seems to be a consensus. I'll side with Verily and others on the need to restrict Atlantic Access to a few spots. Though access should not be required to build all colonies. Just the two trading companies. And I agree that colonies should be available for all civs. Though most civs will have little incentive to build them. So I propose the following changes.

1. All colonies should require a Trading Company but not Atlantic Access.

2. Atlantic Access should halve the cost of building colonies (as now)

3. Atlantic Access locations should be the following;
Plymouth
Amsterdam
Tonsberg
Bordeaux
Marseilles
Lisbon
Cadiz

4. West India Company should enable Gold Coast first (Brazil should come later). East India Company should enable East Africa first. This gives civs a chance to gain slaves before building later colonies.

5. Virginia Colony production time should be reduced by slaves. Not the East Indies as we have it now.

6. Colonies should recieve the same points reward as World Wonders (ie. 50pts. or whatever)

If people can agree on the above as a working compromise, could we have these for the next version, please.

Thanks for the nice summary. Since you're doing the map, you can reposition the "Atlantic Access" according to point 3.

I'll take a shot at the rest. The only point I can't implement right now is #6. The projects XML doesn't have a slot for iAsset (which is the score boost given from building it). It would have to be added by 3Miro at some point. There might be a strong motivation to do so if it would automatically encourage the AI to compete for the colonies.

 

[Lexad]

Jessiecat had once a game where Poland achieved an UHV.

This could indicate their UHV being too easy

 

[JediClemente]

If you place the only accesible "atlantic access" for Spain at Cadiz, that makes it almost impossible to the AI to have it. As it is now it will never get that far conquering Iberia.

But I was going to talk about a strange idea I just had.

Imagine something like this conversion:

radio tower --> printing press (+50% culture, +1 , +1 for great play, great novel or great poems)
eiffel tower --> guttenberg's workshop (one printing press in every city)
broadway --> shakespeare's theater (gives +7 great plays)
hollywood --> Don Quixote de la Mancha/ cervante's something (gives +6 great novels)

Weird, uh?
The original scope of the printing press by its time wasn't that different from nowadays mass media's impact.

Does anyone like the idea?

 

[Lexad]

I do
.

 

[micbic]

Good but printing press is currently a technology. One of them (tech or building) should be renamed

 

[jessiecat]

Thanks for the nice summary. Since you're doing the map, you can reposition the "Atlantic Access" according to point 3.

I'll take a shot at the rest. The only point I can't implement right now is #6. The projects XML doesn't have a slot for iAsset (which is the score boost given from building it). It would have to be added by 3Miro at some point. There might be a strong motivation to do so if it would automatically encourage the AI to compete for the colonies.

OK. I'll change the map accordingly. As for point 6, I really think we need some points incentive for colony building as right now the AI doesn't even try. The AI loves to build wonders and corporations. Why? Because its worth the effort. But for colonies, other than UHV completion there is no incentive at all..

 

[jessiecat]

This could indicate their UHV being too easy

It wasn't just Poland (which I haven't done yet myself) . I've seen the Kievan Rus win a UHV victory also. UHV conditions, in general, will have to be reviewed again. Many are too easy on Monarch. A few, like Portugal, Austria, Byzantines and Ottomans, might be impossible.

 

[civmademepoor]

Been AWOL for a while and have done a thing on the civilopedia, but could someone explain why Marseilles should get Atlantic access? If we need a substitution, may I suggest Copenhagen or Calais?

 

[3Miro]

OK. I'll change the map accordingly. As for point 6, I really think we need some points incentive for colony building as right now the AI doesn't even try. The AI loves to build wonders and corporations. Why? Because its worth the effort. But for colonies, other than UHV completion there is no incentive at all..

There is a way to make the AI want some projects/wonders more than others, I will make sure to implement it. There is already a mechanism to make the AI favor specific techs (RFCEBalance.py)

 

[Lexad]

Addig Flavour?

 

[JediClemente]

Well, I've played with the XML a bit (first time I've ever done it).

Here is the building (Printing Press) and one of the wonders (Shakespeare's Theatre, gives the great plays resource, +2 free artists).

Only the art is missing. Printing Press looks like a Library, and Shak's obviously the same as "National Theatre". There are also no final buttons for the three resources (great plays, great novels, epic poems).

Shak's requirement is Patronage, though I have a problem with it, I think it's too early in the tech tree. Doesn't make sense to see Topkapi built before the Ottomans have appeared... even the Alhambra shouldn't be built before 1400.

I've also seen some XML files are a mess, there are things from regular RFC hanging around.

I don't know which wonder should be put for great novels (something related to Don Quixote or Cervantes was my first idea) or epic poems. This last resource could be available by its wonder much earlier (high middle ages) and made obsolete by printing press.

What do you think? Should I continue?

Problem is I have no idea where to find the art or how to put it for that matter...

 

[Verily]

Beowulf seems like the obvious choice for an epic poem. Of course, that means it has to be available early on.

 

[JediClemente]

I think it could be possible to delete the National Theatre, it didn't make sense to me in regular Civ4, now in RFCE it doesn't even seem useful; there are already a lot of happiness bonuses, and with the literature resources, even more.

Also I don't think there were so many great theatres across Europe before 1800.

 

[jessiecat]

What I'm not really understanding here is if we've already included the National Theatre as a replacement to the Globe Theatre, why would we want to reinstate Shakespeare's Theatre? We called it "National Theatre" deliberately as it could be built by all civs as a National Wonder. Instead of trying to replace what we've already done maybe you guys might like to have a look at the suggested list which I've re-posted below.

BTW And if we wanted to keep it as that, we'd use the BTS art for the Globe Theatre anyway. Remember this?

 

[jessiecat]

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre) included *
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage) *
National University (replaces Oxford University) *
National Epic (as RFC) *
Heroic Epic (as RFC) *
Royal Academy (replaces Great Library) * next version

Projects (3)

Atlantic Access (enabled by Astronomy)*
East India Company *
West India Company *

Corporations (7) - now implemented in the game (see wiki)

Colonies (16 included)

Brazil
Cuba
Capetown
East Africa
East Indies
Gold Coast
Ivory Coast
Hudson Bay
Malaya
Virginia
Far Eastern Treaty Ports (3 allowed)
Indian Trading Posts (3 allowed)

World Wonders (21 included)

Forbidden Palace * (included)
Summer Palace *
The Sistine Chapel, Rome *
Versailles, Paris *
Notre Dame, Paris *
The Leaning Tower, Pisa *
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople *
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople *
Shrine of Uppsala, Norse *
Krak des Chevaliers *
The Monastery of Cluny *
The Round Church *
The Alhambra Palace *
The Palacio de Pena *
The Dome of The Rock * next version
The Brandenburg Gate * next version
The Basilica San Marco * next version
St. Basils Cathedral * next version
St. Sophia Cathedral * next version
La Mezquita Great Mosque * next version
Magna Carta * next version

These have been suggested but not yet implemented:

The Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid (replaces the Statue of Zeus, enemies suffer 100% war weariness,
+1 Great General.)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon, all new units rec. +1 experience point?))
The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens, +1 health, +1 food per city)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya, enables all religion civics)
The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Statue of Liberty, +1 free specialist per city, 1 Great Merchant)
The Escorial Palace, Spain
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces The Eiffel Tower. free monument per city)
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Temple Mount, Jerusalem (replaces the Temple of Solomon)
Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (1 free scientist, 1 free artist in each city?)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Aztec Conquest?
Inca Conquest?

Just to update our list of wonders, projects and colonies. What is bolded has been included. What is not is still to be decided and/or implemented.

I'm bumping the list of what we've talked about before to here in case some of you haven't seen it.

 

[JediClemente]

Yes I know the National Theatre is exactly the Globe Theatre right now, but no Shakespeare's Theatre means no great plays resource, that's its point.

 

[jessiecat]

Yes I know the National Theatre is exactly the Globe Theatre right now, but no Shakespeare's Theatre means no great plays resource, that's its point.

So you're wanting to adapt things similiar to hit singles, hit movies etc. to RFC Europe? I'm OK with great plays being produced by the National Theatre as a tradable resource. But to some extent that's what tradable colonial resources already does. Is there any real shortage of tradable resources in the game now? I haven't noticed any. I wonder what other people think.

Anyway. Tell me what you think of some of the suggested Wonders above and how you would implement them. We have the art for some of them now, and I'm very keen to see some of them implemented soon. This mod severely lacks good wonders through all time periods esp. the late game. IMO. That's the next big addition we have to make in the mod, as I see it. If that sounds like a big hint to Sedna, it is.

 

[3Miro]

I have always disliked Firaxis' idea for Hit Singles, Movies etc. I agree that Hollywood generated a lot of culture and definitely a lot of income, however, I don't see anyone going: "Hey USA we want to see the latest Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, here is some oil/furs/spices for it." Not to mention the potential abuse in human hands.

I don't think we should have Hit Plays as a resource. We can make National/Shakespeare Theater that generates happiness and income, but no Hit Plays.

 

[JediClemente]

Sure it's similar to the colonies, but there are very few resources of coffee, silk, etc.

The idea was to complement this plays/novels/epic poems resources with the printing press (or the latter one with another earlier building). It could give +5%/+10% culture instead of happiness.

Printing press and the diffusion of culture by printed books was a key achievement in history, even more in European history, and it fits the time table of the mod.

Also 3Miro, I think there are a lot of wonders open to potential abuse in human hands, it's just how it is. Stability-wise, the Palacio de Pena (isn't it the one equivalent to Cristo Redentor here?) is hardly used by the AI, not so by the experienced player...

I understand you don't like the Hollywood, Broadway, etc. wonders in Civ4, but you can see it here as the cultural dominion of England, France and Spain by that time over the rest of Europe.

 

[JediClemente]

Anyway. Tell me what you think of some of the suggested Wonders above and how you would implement them. We have the art for some of them now, and I'm very keen to see some of them implemented soon. This mod severely lacks good wonders through all time periods esp. the late game. IMO. That's the next big addition we have to make in the mod, as I see it. If that sounds like a big hint to Sedna, it is.

As I said before, I think Patronage should be later in the tech tree.

I've thought about the problem with Krak des Chevaliers, that of "free walls and castle in every conquered city". It isn't working yet, is it? Isn't there something like onCityConquest in python? I don't know if one can write

if(Krak is built and the player has it)
put walls and castle

Talking about the suggested wonders, Escorial should deffinitely be there, as well as Magna Carta, San Marco and something from Leonardo and Galileo (never understood why it was Copernicus instead of him in Civ3, sure both of them deserve it, but Galileo was faaaaaar more relevant at its time).