RFC Europe Wonders

[Myri]

I've tested some games with a medium/later civ, and the religious requirement seems to work, even if Jerusalem has catholicism.

Than the arabs always were successful in the north or had peath with Byzanz. If they are at war and haven't taken the border cities Al Quds will have more wonders, sometimes more than the rest of Arabia. A human player will for sure build more wonders in Al Quds because Sour can grow further (what takes time not using all possible hammers) and Dimasq is crap for building wonders.

bye Myri

 

[Myri]

A human playing the Arabs in Emperor would never make such a mistake. He will have an UHV which will make him eradicate all other religions XD
BTW, could we counterweight this case by increasing instability for cities without state religion?

Not really, you need 25 % of world population to be islam, does not matter if they have other religions. The ai will not understand stability and a human arab is very stable; easiest way to get your 25 % Islam and a lot of stability is to conquer and liberate Anatolia (as often as you want).

bye Myri

 

[JediClemente]

Hm. I don't like the Shrine of Uppsala now. It becomes obsolete with Monasticsm. I suppose this is intended to help Vikings build it (as others won't). Problem is, it's a very early tech, even vikings can get it quickly so they can't build it. And even if they do, its effects will last less than 20 turns!

(a very small effect, as they can't build harbors by then)

In my games it never gets built.

It is accelerated by stone but also, vikings don't have access to that.

Other things:

- Westminster Abbey comes too soon, the English can never build it (I don't say they must, just give them a chance).
- Professional Armies obsoletes the military corporations too soon.

 

[sedna17]

Hm. I don't like the Shrine of Uppsala now. It becomes obsolete with Monasticsm. I suppose this is intended to help Vikings build it (as others won't). Problem is, it's a very early tech, even vikings can get it quickly so they can't build it. And even if they do, its effects will last less than 20 turns!

Hmm, yes, quite foolish of me. I literally forgot that making a wonder obsolete also eliminates its bonus (I must have been tired when I made that change). Let's move the obsolete tech back to something later and give it a "better" build bonus. The vikings have silver early, perhaps double-speed with that?

- Westminster Abbey comes too soon, the English can never build it (I don't say they must, just give them a chance).
- Professional Armies obsoletes the military corporations too soon.

Haven't thought about Westminster, but I have no problem pushing it back. Note that professional armies don't actually obsolete the corporations. Currently, all they do is eliminate your ability to spread the military orders more (and prevent the AI from spreading it everywhere) because the "executives" upgrade to pikemen and so you can't build them anymore. It was sort of a hack solution anyway. We should come up with a better one.

 

[JediClemente]

Haven't thought about Westminster, but I have no problem pushing it back. Note that professional armies don't actually obsolete the corporations. Currently, all they do is eliminate your ability to spread the military orders more (and prevent the AI from spreading it everywhere) because the "executives" upgrade to pikemen and so you can't build them anymore. It was sort of a hack solution anyway. We should come up with a better one.

Yes, I meant that. Sometimes you can't spread a corporation when you still haven't expanded it to more than 3 cities. It's frustrating.

Perhaps they could be enabled a bit before chivalry (which is an expensive tech).

 

[sedna17]

Yes, I meant that. Sometimes you can't spread a corporation when you still haven't expanded it to more than 3 cities. It's frustrating.

Perhaps they could be enabled a bit before chivalry (which is an expensive tech).

Could work. I think the first two are available at plate_armor, so a little bit earlier. The key is to stick them on techs which the arabs/byzantines don't have -- or! require catholicism as a state religion -- which would totally make sense. Anyway, I think you should feel free to make some of these changes to the BuildingInfos.xml file and see how it works. (The restrictions on corporations mostly come through where you can build their HQ).

 

[FakeShady]

Austria spawns too late, Stephansdom spawns too soon. Austria has no chance of building it. Germany needs more chance to build Imperial Diet. It has got nothing to do with religion really. Adding religion requirements does nothing in helping certain civs get certain wonders. More to do with starting tech, required tech and incentive to build a specific wonder.

 

[JediClemente]

Austria spawns too late, Stephansdom spawns too soon. Austria has no chance of building it. Germany needs more chance to build Imperial Diet. It has got nothing to do with religion really. Adding religion requirements does nothing in helping certain civs get certain wonders. More to do with starting tech, required tech and incentive to build a specific wonder.

The religion does help. Before adding the requirement, in like 80% of the games byzantines or arabs built some of those wonders, and one military corporation each. Cordoba sometimes had like 2-3 wonders. Now they don't.

But I'll move those wonders, you're right, as it happens with Westminster.

 

[JediClemente]

A better solution: I'll put pagan shrine as a requirement to build Shrine of Uppsala. That would give Norse a better opportunity to build it.

BTW, I've seen now the Pope building Knights Templar. Is there any way to prevent it?

 

[merijn_v1]

BTW, I've seen now the Pope building Knights Templar. Is there any way to prevent it?

I saw it too. If I'm right, you can forbid them to build some buildings in XML. I think it can be done with the wonders too.

 

[sedna17]

I saw it too. If I'm right, you can forbid them to build some buildings in XML. I think it can be done with the wonders too.

You can hack this easily with the CivilizationInfos.xml by giving the Pope more "unique buildings" set to NONE. That is, if you do:

<Buildings>

<Building>

<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_SOMEWONDER</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>​

</Building>
​

</Buildings>

then the Pope won't be able to build that wonder. This is how Rhye prevents Byzanitum from building settlers in RFC, for instance. I guess the only complication to this approach is that it requires us to keep this list of wonders co-ordinated with any changes we make to the full list. 3Miro might be able to suggest a more elegant solution.

 

[JediClemente]

then the Pope won't be able to build that wonder. This is how Rhye prevents Byzanitum from building settlers in RFC, for instance. I guess the only complication to this approach is that it requires us to keep this list of wonders co-ordinated with any changes we make to the full list. 3Miro might be able to suggest a more elegant solution.

It's easier than that. We just prevent the Pope from generating great prophets and merchants. What use does he have for them, anyway? And I apply that to independents also. Problem fixed.

 

[sedna17]

It's easier than that. We just prevent the Pope from generating great prophets and merchants. What use does he have for them, anyway? And I apply that to independents also. Problem fixed.

Makes sense I guess. BTW, on the SVN you don't have to delete the old file and put in a new one all the time. You can just modify the file in-place and commit it. That way, sourceforge will automatically be able to do a diff on previous versions and people can see what lines you've changed. Just a little thing...

 

[JediClemente]

Makes sense I guess. BTW, on the SVN you don't have to delete the old file and put in a new one all the time. You can just modify the file in-place and commit it. That way, sourceforge will automatically be able to do a diff on previous versions and people can see what lines you've changed. Just a little thing...

The problem is, I still don't know how to use TortoiseSVN correctly.

I use the repo-browser, and it doesn't let me overwrite files. I see there's something called "mount repository" or something like that, but never get to do it.

 

[JediClemente]

OK. After many tries, now Norse are more competent building Shrine of Uppsala, when they do, but most of the time they don't.

Now it requires to have a pagan shrine, which obsoletes with Monasticism (a tech most civs have, and if they don't, it's one of the first they research). So if the Norse build a pagan shrine before that, they'll later build Shrine of Uppsala.

This was intended to try to secure the wonder for them. This isn't a liked idea, but in the older games it was usual to see Byzantines building the Shrine.

Problem is it seems in a lot of games Norse research Monasticism too soon.

I thought of restricting the wonder to "no state religion", but it can't be done with XML alone and seems a lot of work.

Possible solution: pagan shrine pre-built in Tonsberg. (I don't know how to do that)

***
As an aside note, what do you guys think of the religious requirements?

I think they're fine, but am thinking of changing the properly religious wonders (Notre Dame, Sistine Chapel...) to require state religion.

Also Venezia always builds Magellan's Voyage. Shouldn't it be a civ with, you know, atlantic access? Same as with Belem Tower and Amsterdam Beurs, I'd like to require the resource, not just make it accelerate the construction.

So, please comment.

 

[youtien]

The Shrine of Uppsala can still be destroyed on city conquer, like Moai Statue in RFC. In my game indy built it at Tunis, then I conquer Tunis, then it was lost.

Viking start location is crap, human can settle Helsinforg instead, but AI always stuck in that Rockslide. I never see Viking build the Shrine of Uppsala.

 

[youtien]

Topkapi Palace: I built it as Spain, with France, Portugal, German, Burgandy as my vassals. Then when I train a Tercio (Spain UU, musketman), I still get tercio, not musketeer, which I desire more.

How about: add an option, let player choose the unit to be my UU or vassal's UU? And how if I have 2 or more vassals that use the same UU slot, like, Burgandy (paladin) and Poland (winged hussar) or Moscow (Boyar) ?

 

[merijn_v1]

Topkapi Palace: I built it as Spain, with France, Portugal, German, Burgandy as my vassals. Then when I train a Tercio (Spain UU, musketman), I still get tercio, not musketeer, which I desire more.

How about: add an option, let player choose the unit to be my UU or vassal's UU? And how if I have 2 or more vassals that use the same UU slot, like, Burgandy (paladin) and Poland (winged hussar) or Moscow (Boyar) ?

The Tercio is your own UU. That is more important then the vassal one. Do you get Tercios all the time or do you get a musketeer sometimes?

The Winged Hussar is now a Cuirrasier.

 

[JediClemente]

You really prefer a puny musketeer to the tercios???

 

[youtien]

I prefer their 2 movement, I was going for domination.