RFCE 1.3 Playtest Feedback

[AbsintheRed]

Maybe only reduce them to towns if the English player is human? The only problem really is that it doesn't give the human much choice for settling IIRC, the AI wouldn't suffer from that (and it's not like the English particularly overperform or anything right now anyway).

True
But on the other hand, who would it matter if they are reduced?
I would like to see as much diversity in city placement as possible, even in the hands of the AI.
When I look to the English part of the map it shouldn't be the same in all games

Something similar will happen in Svealand with Uppsala
Spawns in 800 AD, the Danish can conquer it, will be reduced to town on the Swedish start as it's too close to Stockholm

We don't really have a choice with Uppsala-Stockholm, but I don't really see who would it hurt if the English towns are also set up this way
Those cities are not long enough in the hands of the human Danish player to matter too much, and will be lost on the English spawn anyway

 

[Swarbs]

My proposal was to include a couple more indy towns in England (for example Norwich for East Anglia) - so the UHV's English part is all about conquest - and reduce them to towns on the English spawn
Didn't get too much responce to that though

That sounds good to me, sorts out all the problems in one go.

Also unsure about the Norwegian / Swedish part.
Conquering Vestfold does seem difficult, as it usually have at least 2 cities or a major civ, including the capital

I dunno, I've found that one to be easy enough with three well placed starting cities, including Stockholm 1SE of the iron in Svealand, Odense 1S of the Amber and Aarhus 1E of the copper. If you send two of the starting workers to Stockholm to hook up the iron, you can start building CRI promoted Huskarls by about 950AD, and can get six of them by around 1010 if you don't have to build any settlers.

That's enough to sweep away the Norwegians - conquer Tonsberg and the surviving Huskarls will get CRII to conquer Stavanger. So you can use the starting Huskarls to conquer London and / or York and start building more Huskarls there to conquer the rest of England.

That's the theory anyway - I think the best option will be to make the changes to the cities in England and we can give it a good test to see how it works out!

 

[merijn_v1]

Alright, sounds great!
Btw, there is a bug with your new victory screen
Line 1305, with iBiggestTrader == iPlayer, pBestTrader.getName())
The python error won't appear for all civs, but check a Byzantine start for example

Will check it.
EDIT: Found the bug. It happens in the early game, when there hasn't been international trade yet. Fixed it.

If you have time, you can check the background and the buttons of the new leaders
I'm not perfectly satisfied with everything there
For example in some places in the Foreign relations screen, some of the new buttons are smaller than the other ones
Of the backgrounds: I will soon post a list which ones should be changed IMO

PS: don't change the big FPK files yet, just put your changes into the temporary Art folder
It will happen on release when they are final, but otherwise don't want to force the players to dl ~500 megabyte with every commit where we change some art

Ok. Will check them.

I think it is generally a good idea not to touch the FPK until just before the release.



I'm I the only one who gets tons of messages that something is wrong with pyprint?

 

[gilgames]

Sweedens UHVs are fine and doable, tested....
Norvegians UHVs are ok, the 50 point is a bit more challenging then it was with norse.
Danish: yeah starting around 800 seem solution for many problem, also potential england turn to border or foreign on english spawn seems a good choice. if bith is done, no need to change the aims.

indies in england, and flips in overall. regarding to free city placement: ask every flipped city to join you or not! just like culture or barb flips. and you can decide to do it or not. this way player can decide what cities he want and which not. no need to make them towns.

btw more preplced in UK is nice, englnd tends to be vassal to france recently.

oh and since 1.3 started i havnt seen not even once, a powerfull ottoman, it was medicor power once, otherwise poor or vassal. in RL they were a true threat for most of east europe. now its not the case!

muscowies should start a bit earlier too imo. somewhere in ~1310-20

and nobody respoded to my hungarian uhv ideas....

about secound startup: personally i dislike the 1260 date, but the idea is needed.

and a little genoan trick:

View attachment 393022
double revolt ??


and foreign paladins a lot!
and later by aragon too
View attachment 393023

 

[SanJose]

Novgorod UB's(Konets) icon in Pedia is red half sphere [last SVN]

 

[AbsintheRed]

Novgorod UB's(Konets) icon in Pedia is red half sphere [last SVN]

Thanks, fixed
Will be up with my next commit
(the icon works though, I assume you meant the graphic itself)

 

[Panopticon]

While playing as Orthodox Novgorod, Orthodox Byzantium gives me a negative attitude modifier for religion. Is this intentional?

 

[AbsintheRed]

While playing as Orthodox Novgorod, Orthodox Byzantium gives me a negative attitude modifier for religion. Is this intentional?

Yes, it's from the Round Church
IIRC it gives -1 relations with all other orthodox players
But you get no penalites when warring with other orthodoxs

 

[gilgames]

View attachment 393068

i missed it with 3 turns, so i say its pretty possible. my stabiliy although wasnt better than this. and i got manor's in all my cities!!!
A good advise: collect army and take england at once. initial army take upsala and lübeck, rest of them later tonsberg. didnt razed stavanger, cos i was in -6 when took it.

 

[AbsintheRed]

What revision?

 

[Panopticon]

Yes, it's from the Round Church
IIRC it gives -1 relations with all other orthodox players
But you get no penalites when warring with other orthodoxs

I haven't built the Round Church, so I assume Byzantium has. Thank you.

 

[gilgames]

latest, 1116 or what

 

[AbsintheRed]

latest, 1116 or what

I made some further tweaks to Denmark in 1117, that's why I ask

 

[Swarbs]

I just won it, second attempt on version v1117 with the 45 hammer Huskarls. Emperor difficulty.

Best strategy I found was Aarhus, Kobenhavn on the marble, Kivik 1S of the Pig in Skaneland, Kalmar 1S of the cow.
Immediately switch to Feudal Monarchy, Feudal Law, Serfdom, Manorialism and Militarism
Take Uppsala with the starting Huskarls to get the iron.
Then build Huskarls everywhere.

I mean it - all five cities building Huskarls constantly, nothing else. They already have barracks, so CRI promotions already there. As soon as you have six Huskarls, send them to take Tonsberg then raze Stavanger, then collapse or vassalise Norway. If you don't do this, you risk getting done by Norway whilst you are invading England.

Then just keep ferrying Huskarls to England. Take York first, then Norwich, then Nottingham, finally London. I built 11 Huskarls, lost five, so ten left. I also stupidly build two completely unnecessary catapults.

With Militarism you will still be stable / shaky whilst conquering England. Once you have sent your last Huskarl to England, switch to building Manor Houses and you'll be fine.

I just made the UHV, but wasted time building catapults and also had some terrible luck with battles (lost one Huskarl at 99.1% against a spearman, one at 98% against an axeman and one had a 65% chance of victory against an archer and lost without even damaging the archer!)

So yes, it is definitely doable at the current level, if you are quick, aggressive and decisive. Just like a Viking!

 

[Swarbs]

Although I found when England spawned they did so without any techs. Not even Calendar or Architecture.

Possibly bug there - I'm starting an England game as we speak to check if it happens for human England.

 

[Swarbs]

Ok, so it doesn't happen for human England, so is it something to do with London being held by the Danes when the English spawn there?

Also, human England only spawns with two settlers, didn't it used to spawn with three? England has to found at least four, potentially five cities to cover all of England outside Northumbria, so should it not get at least one more settler?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Sounds good
Altough I'm thinking about removing the conquering Vestfold part of the UHV
Even if it's historical, maybe it's better for gameplay if you are forced to concentrate on England for the first UHV, so Norway is left alone to be a more powerful enemy for the second UHV

Also, how does losing the cities, and converting them into towns feel?
Is it too strange?

 

[gilgames]

No they always started with 2 + york. but they have plenty of time to build up the empire.
I noticed that with the new implements english become weaker then regulary, seen them few times as vassal of france, and they only once wiped the scottish

 

[Swarbs]

Sounds good
Altough I'm thinking about removing the conquering Vestfold part of the UHV
Even if it's historical, maybe it's better for gameplay if you are forced to concentrate on England for the first UHV, so Norway is left alone to be a more powerful enemy for the second UHV

That make sense - Norway seems to want to DOW on Denmark a lot so you will still be forced to keep a few Huskarls back in Denmark to defend against them.

Also, how does losing the cities, and converting them into towns feel?
Is it too strange?

Not really, but then I don't really hold the cities all that long. You expect them to flip anyway, and haven't held them long enough to become attached in any way, so it wasn't all that strange at all.

I think it's a good system, as long as it isn't creating the bug I observed with England starting without techs.

No they always started with 2 + york. but they have plenty of time to build up the empire.
I noticed that with the new implements english become weaker then regulary, seen them few times as vassal of france, and they only once wiped the scottish

Agree with this - England will often spawn at war with the French and Scottish, and the AI seems to struggle to fight both wars whilst settling the rest of England (with barbs still popping up) without vassalising. I would say they need another settler and crossbow on start to balance this out a bit.

 

[AbsintheRed]

alright, will look through the last couple pages for some unanswered posts:

View attachment 392717
magyars spawn right next to my border?! how? shouldt they spawn in fog?

there are 2 types of invasions, outer and forced
even outer can spawn this way, near your border
forced may even spawn inside your borders

Downloaded lastest SVN and tried Prussia. Some notes:

1. Prussia is way too underpowered in this. they have a very small starting stack (2 teutonic knights, 1 treb, 2 crossbowmen). I said yes to the crusade event (5th crusade by this point), lost BOTH of my knights (i WB'ed them back in), which really seems unfair to small Prussia just starting out.

2. Prussia doesn't have access to Horse or Iron, meaning they can't build their Teutonic Knights or settle the two starting Teutonic Masters in their cities. The closest source is Vilnius, but Lithuania's army completely dwarfs yours (5 Bajoras, 4 crossbowmen & guisarmiers each (i think there were some extras from Kiev DOWing over Minsk however), along with 2 barb keshiks that Lithuania regularly flips when they spawn). I'd suggest adding them near Konigsberg (or rather, putting horses near Konigsberg, an iron somewhere in Livonia, and another iron in Brandeburg) just so they don't suffer from the direction changes east-west later on.

3. Their DCN is a little messed up. I started as Duchy of Prussia as opposed to Teutonic Order and then turned into the Livonian Order when i settled Windau and conquered Pskov from Novgorod.

I think I will add that none of your units can leave for crusade in the first couple turns, even if you are willing to participate.
Teutonic Masters don't matter, they will be gone for good in a couple weeks
Good point about iron and horses, I only added sulphur
DCN updates are long due for a lots of civs, will do some before the 1.3 release

At Emperor Leon shrinks to size 1 in the first turn, sometimes health and or food is to low.

bye Myri

Yeah, same with Roskilde
I will have to think something
Maybe have capitals spawn with some food in the city? Half of the next level for example
Didn't check the code for this, not sure how hard would it be to code

View attachment 392844

it is a bad thing that barbs who are coming from east appear in the middle of your borders! imo they should spawn on the east edge of the map!? + its 1086 the first crusade is coming in the next turn! its might be too much on emperor or for the AI.

apropos crusade:
View attachment 392845

dont pop paladins and teutonics when nobody have chivalry at that time nor any corp.

Both totally intentional
For the second one also keep in mind that the company system will be redesigned

For historical compliance is necessary to add to some WWs next requires:
Tomb of Al-Walid - islam
St.Basil Vathedral - orthodox
Krak des Chevalies - islam (original muslim citadel)
La Mezquita - islam
San Marco Basilica - catholic
The Alhambra - islam
The Gardens of Al Andalus - islam
Topkapi Palace - islam
Sistine Chapel - catholic

I agree that some more wonders could use a religion prereq
Will look into wonders too, but only after 1.3 is released.
Don't want to start on too many new things before that

OK, it was on topic long ago but now i made a lil' "research" on it. It's Hungary's UHVs. we all know thats currently way too easy. I tried a new one and made it, also done the regular ones.

1, resettling the basin: Have 2 cities in all of your core areas by 1150. (date can be arranged)
(thus you will do it anyway, you must focus on it a bit)

2, Four Seas: have a costal city on four different seas in/by 1350. (historically these were baltic, black, mediterran and adria) the date can also be discussed, but before it, there is the mongols and austria

3, Deffender of europe: Allow no ottoman in europe till 1541. (This is the historically failed one. in 1541 ottomans took Buda)


-I tried it, and can be done, also there are things that you must do, not only because u are there
sorted better in time, you can decide when to have a golden age. and a bit more challenge imo.


But to make the last one more serious, ottomans need to be changed:
-all starting unit mace and longbow should be janissaries and...
if ottomans take Istanbul, then they flip all Asia Minor (all above antakya)
-or both at start.

Reasons: AI byz have nothing to do after ottomans start. if they doing well, you are crippled, if they are weak, you are crippled. recently arabs are qiute good, you are crippled. Hungary tends to be strong always.

also new uhv ideas for ottomans:

- Vassalize or collaps hungary by 1541.
- Ottomans empire: old uhv 1+2 in 1580 (i have no good idea for this date)
- 3. uhv is good as it was.

I don't see too many historic reasons to some of these suggestions
Hungary never had borders on 4 seas
IMO we don't need that drastic changes on the current UHVs
Ottomans need to be stronger, sure. But vassalizing Hungary is no prob for a human Ottoman player, I see no challenge in that one for example
If anything, I would like to make their 3rd UHV harder.

Back to Hungary:
The way I would like to improve the challenge for them, is to add an extra date to both the 1st and 2nd UHVs
Be the biggest European country in 1380 (Nagy Lajos' Empire, with ruling over all the Balkan states and leading a personal union with Poland, and conquering the Kingdom of Naples (his father's paternal heritage was Naples, and on a maternal line he descended from the house Arpad, was grandson of one of the last Arpad-house kings)) and 1490 (current UHV date, Matthias Corvinus's conquest of Austria, Bohemia/Moravia and Silesia, while having Wallachia and a couple other states as vassals)
Don't let any other Ottoman cities in Europe in 1444 (Hunyadi János' Balkan campaigns, battle of Varna) and in 1526 (Battle of Mohacs, decisive Ottoman victory over Hungary, start of the conquest of central Hungary)

Another idea to separate the seas into "provincies" just like lands. as baltic, north, black etc....so they could be checked and uhvs could be tied to them also...

so what do you think about them?

I don't yet see a good representation for sea provinces
Also don't really see enough benefits, which would make all the work on that worth it

Thanks for all the feedback, and cheers:
Absinthe