RFCE 1.3 Playtest Feedback

[Swarbs]

I think the English UP needs to be changed. Even with beelining (which is impossible to get the conquest goal as you need knights), you won't get Guilds until around 1300AD, which is too late to be of much value to England.

Surely if the power is called the power of cottage economy, it should give a production and gold bonus to cottages (and hamlets, villages and towns)? That would better reflect the medieval cottage economy in England, and would be genuinely useful to the English as it would help them compete on production with the more developed European civs.

 

[Swarbs]

Also if the French have to conquer Normandy for their UHV, it probably shouldn't be too heavily guarded at the start - I would say one archer would be enough, same as Milan.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think the English UP needs to be changed. Even with beelining (which is impossible to get the conquest goal as you need knights), you won't get Guilds until around 1300AD, which is too late to be of much value to England.

Surely if the power is called the power of cottage economy, it should give a production and gold bonus to cottages (and hamlets, villages and towns)? That would better reflect the medieval cottage economy in England, and would be genuinely useful to the English as it would help them compete on production with the more developed European civs.

Yeah, we had on ongoing debate with 3Miro and a couple others a couple years ago.
For some reason many people wanted to represent the cottage economy with the workshop boost - but ATM I can't even remember why.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Also if the French have to conquer Normandy for their UHV, it probably shouldn't be too heavily guarded at the start - I would say one archer would be enough, same as Milan.

Yeah, I also noticed the Franks counquer it very late.
Currently Milan also has 2 archers though, and I don't mind that one.
Do you propose to change that too?

 

[Swarbs]

Yeah, we had on ongoing debate with 3Miro and a couple others a couple years ago.
For some reason many people wanted to represent the cottage economy with the workshop boost - but ATM I can't even remember why.

It seems bizarre to me - the whole point of the cottage economy was that cottages and villages housed the English artisans and craftsmen, so the country didn't need that many workshops to be productive. It was a key part of England's ability to compete with larger and more populous nations like France during that period of history.

Yeah, I also noticed the Franks counquer it very late.
Currently Milan also has 2 archers though, and I don't mind that one.
Do you propose to change that too?

No, Milan is fine imo - if you only put one archer in Milan you encourage an early and ahistoric rush for that city. IRL it wasn't conquered until the 8th century so should be well defended. But Caen was in the middle of the early French expansion, so should be possible to take early on without relying on dice luck.

 

[gilgames]

I just tried a france start, they seems op now

 

[AbsintheRed]

I just tried a france start, they seems op now

Big Blue Blob for the glory!

 

[gilgames]

That monarch fame felt a viceroy. Tech rate after 900 ad was between +100 - +400%. Conquered all border province and a few unstable too. Now i plan to take over all iberia before 3. Uhv done. Still ahead of all civ in tech at 1400+, lost only stephansdom, england rushed it. Lol.
But there was a mess with dcn or what.
Spain was Iberian union, then aragon and now portugal runs with that name. I am western empire, thats seems wierd.

 

[AbsintheRed]

That monarch fame felt a viceroy. Tech rate after 900 ad was between +100 - +400%. Conquered all border province and a few unstable too. Now i plan to take over all iberia before 3. Uhv done. Still ahead of all civ in tech at 1400+, lost only stephansdom, england rushed it. Lol.
But there was a mess with dcn or what.
Spain was Iberian union, then aragon and now portugal runs with that name. I am western empire, thats seems wierd.

All 3 civs can be Iberian Union, if they dominate the other 2.
But that is rather unlikely, so it's probably a mistake in did in the DCNames.
What was their situation when holding the name, respectively?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think the English UP needs to be changed. Even with beelining (which is impossible to get the conquest goal as you need knights), you won't get Guilds until around 1300AD, which is too late to be of much value to England.

Surely if the power is called the power of cottage economy, it should give a production and gold bonus to cottages (and hamlets, villages and towns)? That would better reflect the medieval cottage economy in England, and would be genuinely useful to the English as it would help them compete on production with the more developed European civs.

I agree, and the name is very misleading for sure. It was meant to be Cottage Industry.
Btw checked some old conversations about it:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9916452&highlight=cottage#post9916452
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10212543#post10212543
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10214394#post10214394
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7380739#post7380739

The main reason for not changing it (gameplay-wise) was that towns would be overpowered with an extra hammer.
Historically: some people argued that it was closer to workshops than villages/towns.

(btw, it's fun to reread some of these old conversation, consideing how much was changed)
(juts check these maps here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7605612&highlight=cottage#post7605612)
(even the colours look funny now, everyone got used to something entirely different )
(red byznatium, grey france, dark purple hungary, light purple cordoba, brown kiev, green muscovy, dark blue burgundy, orange genoa - looks sooo stange now)

 

[gilgames]

OMFG that map, i think i missed that early version at all.
Iberian union happened again, if one of them arent vassal as usually (almost always) then it is IU. If you mean "dominate" to be independent from other powers, then they do
I think we should try it with cottage, instead of workshops, that hamlet and above it gives +1 hammer, and see what up. Enland need some boost anyway, they often got beated/vassalized.

 

[Swarbs]

I agree, and the name is very misleading for sure. It was meant to be Cottage Industry.
Btw checked some old conversations about it:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9916452&highlight=cottage#post9916452
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10213095&highlight=cottage#post10213095
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10214394#post10214394
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7380739#post7380739

The main reason for not changing it (gameplay-wise) was that towns would be overpowered with an extra hammer.
Historically: some people argued that it was closer to workshops than villages/towns.

Having studied English history for GCSE (16 yo exams in the UK), it was definitely closer to villages. The cottage economy in England worked on a collective basis - agricultural labourers, rural artisans and smaller village traders worked together to generate sufficient food, craft and money to keep feudal villages working in England. Some artisans possessed workshops, but they were relatively rare within the village system, as much of the work was done in the homes (often by the extended family of the artisan).

There's a decent explanation of the system here:
http://www.geog.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/occupations/abstracts/paper15.pdf

Also, from a gameplay point of view, the UP was based on the following goals:

England ....THE POWER OF PRODUCTION (Workshops produce extra hammers and gold?)
...................UHV 1. Control the all of the British Isles plus 1 city in France in 1600AD
..........................2. Build 3 Colonial projects by 1700AD
...........................3. Be the first to reach the Industrial Age.
.......................UB...Stock Exchange (needs bank)?
........................UU...Man of War (as in BTS)?

UHV1 for England is now much harder and much earlier, so I think the UP needs to be updated to reflect that. The discussion also came before the addition of Scotland and the recent buffs to France, so I think England needs a similar buff. +1 (and maybe +1) to hamlets and up makes much more sense than the workshop buff, and will allow England to achieve decent science and production when they currently lag behind.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I was always on the side of changing them to something actually connected to cottages.
I agree with your other points as well, makes sense from a balance point of view.
I'm not sure about the amount of the bonus though.
If we add it even from hamlets, it can easily get way too powerful.

PS: So you prefer the name Cottage Economy? Up until this post, I planned to change it to Cottage Industry

 

[Swarbs]

I was always on the side of changing them to something actually connected to cottages.
I agree with your other points as well, makes sense from a balance point of view.
I'm not sure about the amount of the bonus though.
If we add it even from hamlets, it can easily get way too powerful.

PS: So you prefer the name Cottage Economy? Up until this post, I planned to change it to Cottage Industry

I wouldn't have thought it would be that powerful - even with hamlets it will still only be one additional and per plot - no more OP than serfdom and manorialism makes farms.

If anything that's probably the most historical way to represent it - the Domesday book shows England had similar numbers of cottagers and serfs, with far more cottagers than most other feudal societies. So it shows the way the English balanced the two systems.

And yes, Cottage Economy is the most accepted term so I think that would be the best choice.

 

[Force44]

I would like to ad that england itself has very few spots that are more suitable for a workshop than a farm.

 

[Force44]

Poland declared war on me (Hungary) and I decided to turn them into my vassal.

After some decisive victories they capitulated and now I want to give them back (most) of the lands I conquered from them. But the diplomacywindow won't let me. A couple of cities show up on the tradescreen that can be liberated but the game won't let me click them.

Is this a bug or intentional?

The savegame is the latest SVN (revision 1218)

 

[gilgames]

It must be a bug, if you cant liberate them instantly, then wait a couple turb until the cities are pacified, then you must be able to libetate them. If not its a bug.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Poland declared war on me (Hungary) and I decided to turn them into my vassal.

After some decisive victories they capitulated and now I want to give them back (most) of the lands I conquered from them. But the diplomacywindow won't let me. A couple of cities show up on the tradescreen that can be liberated but the game won't let me click them.

Is this a bug or intentional?

The savegame is the latest SVN (revision 1218)

Can't open the file
Also the size should be bigger I think, so it probably didn't upload properly

EDIT:
Managed to open your save (had to rename the file for some reason)
I can liberate all 4 cities.
Stability goes up to +15-20, and it also greatly improves your diplomatic relations with them.
You can even keep Krakow and Lublin

EDIT2:
I most certainly messed up something with the DCN in Iberia
You have 3 civs with "Iberian Union" in the save

 

[Force44]

When I try to upload the attachment a second time the forum says I already have that file uploaded. Is there a way to remove that unloadable uploaded file so I can try (again) to upload the file correctly ?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Ohh, sry edited my last post since
Your save is ok, but next time you should maybe add a name with a little less characters