Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Mar 6, 2012.
You have some good modding abilities rigth? why you don't form a team to continue with RFCE?
Thank you for the complement, but my modding abilities are really bad. If you read through the thread for SoI:X (in my sig) you will see how much advice and help i got.
Also, i'm not sure if RFCE2.0 has actually been abandoned
Hello, I have an idea about Francia.
Francia starts in 500 in Aahen province.
Leaders: Clovis, Charlemagne.
In 843 Francia splits into three (starts West Francia and East Francia).
Who is in charge here nowadays? Anyone? What's up with 2.0 anyway?
2.0 doesn't exist. We started brainstorming for it. But nothing is coded or anything.
Very sad. I am playing RFCE++ Beta 3 (with all the fixes) and it feels very interesting and cool. Many people will like it if they only forget about Beta 4. Is it possible to upload prominently Beta 3 with all the city name fixes and hotfixes as the "Last stable version" somewhere in OP by the mod (we could ask Leoreth).
what do u mean with all the fixes?
i have beta 3 but there are a lot of bugs like "hungary is now vassal of hungary" and so on...
you mean fix of this ??
No, it is the least of my worries. City names were off, Russians found Pavlovo instead of Moscow. Arabs crush if played by human player before the simple fix, etc...
I would suggest:
New byzantine´s emperors along the time
Justinian from 500 to 800,
Basil from 800 to 1000,
Alexios Komnemos from 1000 to ahead... ( or maybe differents emperors, the point is that byzantium should switch their leader across the time, just like the other countries)
Bumping this thread with some thoughts I had
Currently, RFCE has 29 (28 + Pope) civs. The next update will add four new civs, bringing the total to 33. Adding the remaining 4 RFCE civs, which I think is a good idea, would bring it to 37.
Now, I think that smaller civs like Bohemia and Serbia could even be interesting on the current map, even though they could only ever have like 2-3 cities. (The Netherlands usually has 3 in RFCE, and Babylon and Korea rarely have more than 3 in DoC). But on the bigger map, they could comfortably have 4 cities each.
So what other civs would be good after all the RFCE civs and the planned civs for 1.6 are in?
I think Ireland would be interesting, but I already got a lot of pushback on the idea when I proposed it years ago and the English UHVs are already hard enough. Same thing with Wales, which also would be even smaller than Serbia or Bohemia.
Another German state (or two, but this might be excessive) would be a good idea, especially if the HRE from RFCE++ is used. Bavaria is the most obvious candidate, but it may not be the best choice.
Armenia, Georgia, Khazaria, Volga Bulgaria, Wallachia, and the Golden Horde are already planned for this, AFAIK, so I don't think I need to make a case for their inclusion.
Switzerland would be a good civ to have, but it might be better as a NPC with a purpose related to mercenaries and banking. I think that a well-done playable Switzerland would be an amazing and unique experience, though. There is enough room on the bigger map for 4-5 cities, and they could easily get a UP that gives them bonuses from peaks.
So 37 civs + 6 new ones already planned + Switzerland and another German state = 45 civs on a map that's about 14,000 tiles.
I think that's a good number.
Please include real civilizations only please. Ireland as a state did not exist until the 20th century. We do make exceptions for the Kingdom of Germany, but at least there was a title of: King of Germany (unlike Ireland). Bohemia seems species to include, if only because of its limited expansion. Much rather just have independent Hussite rebellion in Bohemia for flavour. Bohemia was enveloped into the Holy Roman Empire relatively early on anyway.
Serbia makes sense, granted the Kingdom didn't last long, and in reality was more a patch work of principalities. Could be offered as a challenge though.
I'd like to see a Sultanate of Rum civilization, like in SoI, as a precursor to the Ottomans. Have the Ottomans spawn only if the Sultanate of Rum collapses.
There were independent Irish kingdoms, and they would be an interesting civ, but like I said, the English UHVs are already hard enough.
Bohemia is small, but that provides opportunities for unique gameplay and UHVs.
Agree with this
Small independent chiefdoms don't make a unitary civilization. Otherwise we might as well have "Italy" and "Italians" from 500CE. Let's stick to less abstract civilizations, like RFCE has already done so far.
Bohemia was absorbed into "Germany" (Holy Roman Empire) early on, and the native Premyslid dynasty died out and was replaced by a German dynasty from Luxembourg, and was the centre of the HRE. Without some kind of HRE mechanics, I don't see the point in adding them. What would there UHVs be? They were constrained in geography. Makes far more sense to represent the gold/silver mines (Kutna Hora especially), hussites, and others with a unique independent civ if need be. I just don't see why they would be fun or exceptional given the limits of Civ4.
1) Ireland could be an interesting civ to play, but I recognize it was never really unified, and also, the English game is already very difficult. I'm not pushing for it, but I think it might be interesting in some ways.
2) Bohemia worked well in RFCE++, which did have the HRE mechanic. It's my understanding that RFCE 2.0 would include pretty much everything from RFCE++.
Where would be the limit, then? What about the Kingdom of Croatia? The numerous maritime republics? The Slavs at the coast of the Baltic Sea? You could go on and on. Historical reasons aside, you should also give reasons why to add civs gameplay-wise.
To whom is this directed?
And I would just add to this that the gameplay performance is also important. The late game already lags on my computer, and adding more civs just for the sake of it doesn't seem very appealing to me, especially when independent cities can represent them fine.
Mercenaries should be more common, especially german ones in Scandinavia. They are very important in Swedish history and was widely used.
Serbia and Rum would be good imo - both have a decent period of history to exist over, and went through phases of expansion and crisis so definitely some good gameplay there.
The main issue with others such as Ireland, Wales, Switzerland and Bohemia is the gameplay. Would they have fun UHVs and be a good experience?
IIRC the main issue you encountered when pushing for Ireland a couple of years back was that the proposed UHVs were quite boring and not challenging. It was something like build three Catholic Churches by 700AD and kill 20 English units by 1700AD. What do you do for the rest of the time, hit end turn and hide on your island?
Even with Scotland's history stretched as far as possible by its RFCE UHVs they are not particularly fun to play - you can capture Ireland, Wales and Brittany before England spawns, then ally with France, maintain permanent wars with all their enemies and click end turn until you win the game with the occasional need to defend some territory. I can't personally see an option for Wales or Ireland which wouldn't largely be the same.
Imo if we are going to add in new civs they need to have good gameplay opportunities, not just filling space. So I would say if you want to propose new civs, then please propose their UHVs (and ideally UUs, UBs and UPs as well) as a basis for discussion.
Revised from an old post I made back in 2014... Time flies! Many civs were added since then: Prussia, Morocco, Aragon, Scotland, Novgorod, and Denmark.
More are planned to be added eventually: Sicily/Naples, Egypt, Tunisia, and Crimea.
The remaining civs that I see as "possible" but not necessary to add are the following eight: Lombardy/Milan, Serbia, Rum, Franks, Golden Horde, Bohemia, Navarre, Latin Kingdom*. Although, I really most of them!
Anything else is too insignificant to add as a standalone civ with unique units and the rest: Croatia, Brittany, Aquitaine, Saxony, Bavaria, Walachia, Brandenburg, Transylvania, Ireland, Savoy, Wales, Zayyanid KoT*, Aghlabids, Splitting Leon from Castille, Florence*, Switzerland, Granada, etc.
However, I could see the Zayyanids contending as an unplayable civ between morocco and Tunisia. Maybe not as a fully fledged civ though. Similar situation with Florence, partly because other civs from Western Europe come with large armies try to conquer it. Unplayable might work for Navarre as well. The Balkans could use more independent revolts as well prior to the Ottoman start date...
1. Lombardy/Milan. I think this would be a great civ to add. A nice conquest of Italy while fighting back European invasions, and having overland rivalries with Genoa, Venice, and Naples to the south. Basically the same as it was in RFCE++.
2. Serbia is a good candidate overall. The Balkans are left to Hungary for the most part, which creates a tough roadblock to the Ottomans. Adding the, would Balkanize the region appropriately. There would be good conquest goals. It existed as a Grand Principality from 1091-1217. Kingdom from 1217-1346. Empire from 1346-1371 which then broke into many successor states eventually conquered by the Ottomans. That's a good timeline to work with. Basically the same as it was in RFCE++?
3. Sultanate of Rum. This would be a fun addition, although I think barbarian invasions could do the job just fine. You keep the Byzantines from reclaiming Anatolia, conquer as much of the area as possible while contending against Timurid barbarian invasions and the Ottomans rising. And when they collapse, it will resemble the different beyliks well, and Karaman will be a good respawn. Basically the same information as RFCE++.
4. Franks splitting from France. Since the timeline is expected to change and add more turn to the early and high Middle Ages, I see more reason to split France from being the eternal playable civ of the game. The Franks will focus on settlement and conquest of Western Europe, leaving other goals to France. France's spawn date would move to Burgundy and Germany's, 843, when the HRE originally broke up into three successor kingdoms. However, the Franks would potentially need to auto collapse before France's spawn... I see it as a plus for historical accuracy and gameplay.
Franks spawn at Paris or Metz
UU Throwing Axeman: (replaces axeman) Same strength as regular axeman but starts with collateral I like a catapult would have, and can promote to collateral II and III etc.
UB Chapter School (replaces library. +1 or +2 great saint points, requires Catholicism)
UP Cities do not revolt on conquest.
Or religious buildings produce extra happiness
Or religious buildings produce one great prophet point
1. Same as current first French UHV
2. Have friendly relations with the Byzantines by 800
3. Build 8 chapter schools by 820
4. Have a X amount of faith points by 750
5. Control every French and German province in 1055
6. Settle 4 great saints within your empire
7. Build 10 monasteries by 825
8. Control more territory than the Byzantine empire?
Replace French 1st UHV - Spawn in 840's for treaty of Verdun. Capital stays at Paris, and flips cities westward along the Loire river.
1. Have 10,000 culture by 1500
2.. Make Paris the largest and most cultured city in 1300
3. Ensure that all of your cities have a castle, chateau, and reliquary*
4. Build the first university in Europe.
5. Control four cities within "foreign core" territory.
5. Golden Horde. I really like this idea for a civ. They start at the corner of the steppe with the goal of conquering as much of Europe as possible. Although they will probably interfere with scripted barbarian invasions in Rus and elsewhere. There has to be a neat way of including them.
Spawn: 1230's-1240's, or 1241 or 1255 at Sarai Batu.
Leaders: Batu Khan, Tokhtamysh
Spawn stack: Start with six or seven horse archer units (from UU), two settlers, two guisarmiers, one crossbowmen, and maybe an Islamic missionary. (They converted later on)
UB: Kurultai (courthouse) +1 trade route and +1 culture
Or Darughachi (Manor House without the stability bonus, but with a better wealth bonus instead)
Or Yam from SOI (except it replaces market)
UP: The Horde - Barbarian units won't attack your units or cities until 1270?
Or Total War - Enemies suffer 50% extra war weariness
Or Nomad Inclusion - Can train UU of a vassal Or captured workers turn into horse archers
Or they can decide where a small stack of barbarian keshiks spawn and attack every 13 or so turns through a scripted event.
Or Start with two great generals in your stack of units
Or Last Barbarians - Portions of wealth from a razed city (based on size+culture) are transferred to your capital/treasury (Like SOI's Timurid UP, but with wealth instead of culture)
UU: Keshik, Mangudai, Asud Guard, Khorchin. (All Replace knight)
If the standard Keshik info isn't chosen then: 20% withdrawal chance, +1 movement (or ignores terrain moving cost), and is cheaper than knight (10%?).
UHV: Tatar Yoke 1. Have two vassals by by 1365?
2. Have four vassals by 1420
3. Raze 8 cities with a population of "6" or higher
4. Control 12 cities in twelve different provinces by 1345
5. Control 15 cities in fifteen different provinces
6. Have 3,000 culture by 1410?
7. Collect 1,200 gold from pillaging by 1330, or earlier if capturing a city counts.
8. Have trade relations with the Genoans and Egyptians (Arabs)
9. Kill 100 units by 1389?
10. Raze or capture six capital cities from six different civs
11. Collapse the Bulgarians, Novgorod, Muscovites, Kievans, and (Lithuanians?).
12. Secure two or three silver resources by trade.
13. Control 12% of world territory
When Tamerlane's scripted barbarian invasion occurs, have extra barbarians invade around Sarai Batu and Ukraine to represent civil war in the Khanate, and help weaken them. And have frequent barbarian keshiks spawn in southern Russia to help break them down after 1380's.
6. Bohemia starting at 1085 from RFCE++ can be made without splitting Germany, but I find trouble with making Austria weaker at its start. Technically, they could spawn as early as Great Moravia in 830, but only there are only 22 turns before Hungary spawns. That's very little time to expand, and I am assuming that a spawning Hungary should start at war with an early Bohemia. From then they are relatively static and confined to their home province, but also Silesia. I could see them being playable as a weaker civ between Germany and Poland. It would help to curb the power of Germany, albeit likely becoming a vassal state. Although, a Poland player would try to vassalize it first under the Przemysl dynasty. Still an interesting civ.
Adjustments to RFCE++ info.
Same UU and UB.
UHVs: the original three first.
1. The Iron and Golden King - Control Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Austria and Carinthia in 1271.
2. The Iron and Golden Crown - Become Holy Roman Emperor by 1400. Maybe Western civ with highest score instead?
3. The Bohemian Revolt - Have a larger population than any HRE state in 1648 (let's change this to Germany, Burgundy, Lombard/Milan, and Austria).
7. Navarre. There's some hypocrisy since relegating it to an independent civ already works well, but I like the challenge of playing a small "one city challenge" civ. Nestled in the Pyrenees, you are caught between Spain, France, and Aragon. It would curb an overpowering Spain in relation to Aragon without weakening them too much against Cordoba. This would make four Christian states in Spain to fight in the Reconquista. The trick would be making it a worthwhile civ to play, apart from sitting where you start (Wales, Ireland, Scotland, etc).
Spawn in 824 at Pamplona with a few small units, although it could spawn at 710 as "Vasconia" but I'm not sure how that would affect Cordoba.
Leader: Sancho the Great
Starting stack: two UU, one worker, one missionary, two archers.
UU: Jinete (or Ginete/Genitour) replaces mounted sergeant, +25% versus melee and archery units.
UB: Baserri (replaces manor house) provides a culture bonus
Or Garai (replaces granary) maybe a small defense bonus?
Or Dorretxeak* (replaces tower house) +1 extra culture.
UP: Ecclesiastical Piety - religious buildings costs are halved
1. Control Castille, Navarre, and Aragon by 1035
2. Control two cities in Aquitaine, and two in Spain by 1000
3. Build a catholic cathedral by 1180
4. Have friendly relations with three other leaders in 1345?
5. Have 6,000 culture by 1485
6. Control one city in Normandy, Navarre, Aquitaine, Provence, and Castille
7. Obtain the first whale resource
*If they only control Pamplona and haven't reached the high Middle Ages, then their dynamic name should be "Kingdom of Pamplona"
8. Latin Kingdom*. Have them spawning instead of the 4th crusade occurring. I am biased for having them included, but they didn't exist very long. On the plus side, they could curb Byzantines and prevent over expansive Venetians, and be a very fun conquest/survival challenge. Only alive historically from turns 252-281, which is less than 30 turns. So I would have them represent Frankokratia (Thessalonica, Achaea, Duchy of Athens, etc) which some lasted up towards the Ottoman conquest. The fourth crusade mechanic would have to be reworked (the crusades need reworking anyway). Instead of a standard crusade, give the option to civs to participate in the fourth crusade and appear at Constantinople with the Latin starting stack?
Spawn outside Constantinople one tile west in 1200 or 1204. Have Constantinople go through a minor revolt like SOI's Jerusalem/Antioch when crusader civs spawn. Only flip Adrianople?
Leader: Baldwin I, or Robert I, or Baldwin II
UP: Catholic buildings produce double stability? Or buildings are not destroyed upon conquest.
Or conquering a city produces twice as much gold.
Or cities do not revolt upon conquest (most useful).
UB: Salic Court? (Replaces courthouse) +1 extra culture, and +50% trade route yield?
Or Garrison (generic replacement for barracks) +1 happiness
UU: Frankish Sergeant (replaces maceman) +25% vs archery units
Or Flemish Infantry (replaces guisarmier) ignores defensive bonuses (as in, ignores walls and castle defense bonuses on attacking). Base strength of seven instead of six.
1. Control Thessaly, Morea, Constantinople, and Thrace
2. Survive to the year 1455
3. Control four relics in Constantinople *(If relics are included!)
4. Spread Catholicism to ten Orthodox cities
5. Control four luxury resources by trade
6. Ensure Catholicism has twice(or thrice) as many followers than Orthodoxy does
The odd potential civ I don't know where to place is Wessex. It is an odd one to suggest, but the Anglo-Saxons (Wessex) could be a fun game to play since the timeline will be adjusted. Otherwise they don't reallyneedto be added.
Basically their goals are to conquer other members of the Heptarchy (3 independent cities) while defeating barbarian spawns from Wales and Dumnonia, barbarian Vikings, Norway, Denmark, and then eventually facing a powerful Normandy spawn.
*It would make the area challenging and fun for Denmark/Vikings UHV, and the English too instead of a free colonizing early game. However, the English would need to change their starting situation: Flip Normandy on spawn and start with a large army outside London.
Leader: Harold Godwinsson, Alfred the Great
Spawn at Glastonbury or Bath.
Starting stack: two Fyrd militia, one axman, one archer, one worker, one settler.
UU: Fyrd Levy/Militia (replaces spearman) +50% defense from amphibious landings: and also; either smaller bonus versus mounted units and much cheaper; or +1 movement; or starts with city raider I. (To make it a guerrilla unit, or an en masse cheap unit).
UB: Burh (replaces walls) +1 gold (or +15% wealth) and cost 100 hammers instead of 120. Maybe a slightly smaller defense bonus?
UP: Shire Courts - Cities have an improved trade route yield (30%?)
Or no city maintenance on same continent as capital
Or cities produce +1 culture per resource consumed
1. Settle two great people by 1040
2. Control London, Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia, and Northumbria by 920
3. Control twelve farms within your borders
4. Have a catholic monastery and manor built in each city you own
5. Ensure there is no foreign culture in England by 1055 (successful defense against Vikings. I'm assuming there would be plenty of extra Viking barbarians).
6. Settle two great artists by 1360
7. Have the most culture of any Western European civ in 1030 (alternate: 1500)
8. Have the most friendly relations with the pope
9. Defeat 30 Viking units
Separate names with a comma.