Rhino - Deity Hatty - Random Personalities

[OneLeggedRhino]

Deity, All My Defaults

I'm rested from the easy culture domination game, and ready for a challenge. Hope you are, too.

It's mostly my normal settings:

• Fractal, all defaults, marathon speed
• No barbs, huts or events
• No tech trades or diplo victory
• Aggressive AI
• New: Random personalities

Mylene's random personalities game got me thinking about that setting again. It sounds like a fun challenge to not know what to expect when I meet an AI. To have to gauge who's aggressive and who's safe, to not know if someone has a 10% chance to declare at pleased or not. Less min / maxing, more exploring, like when we first played.

For the leader, I pick Hatty (Spiritual / Creative, Egypt). Last Deity game, I wanted to expand faster and claim more land, and well, that's what Creative is all about. It will seriously drop off in usefulness later, but even so, I had some culture contests, where a cheap theater and free +2 CPT could help. Plus, war chariots might convince me to rush someone, even with the deity bonuses.

Detailed settings:

Spoiler :

And the start:

Spoiler :

The bare grassland 1S of the settler is probably a resource. Maybe a chariot rush is in my future?

Settling on the plains hill seems like the obvious move to me. All the land to the South is forests, so unlikely to have any early-game resources.

A note on moving the warrior:

Spoiler :

My first impulse was to move North, which sees the most tiles. But then I laid down the potential dots, and saw that what I really needed to check was the tile to the SW that I'd lose by moving the settler 1N. If it was a resource, I'd stay put, and if not, I'd move. I didn't need to know a lot of tiles, just that one. That's why I lay out potential dots before moving the warrior.

But I've made the habit of making the map before I really want to start the turnset. So I haven't settled yet. If you think 1N is the wrong choice, please do speak up.

Edit: After writing this up, it occurs to me that the plains hill might be a resource. It is surrounded by forests, after all. Thoughts?

Savefile is attached. Requires MacBuffy to open. (Get MacBuffy here, it's the first link in that post).

 

[Kid R]

Looks to me like you could see that tile was forest from the start position! OTOH warrior 1NW revealed 3 tiles of the alternate BFC and also got a better feel for if it's coast to the north (looks like it might be). You wouldn't want to move to the PH and get 4 coasts in return for your original 4 river grass forests. River grass is much better than coast anyway and early chop hammers would more than make up for the supercharged city tile.

SIP also removes the poor plains tile from the BFC.

 

[Um the Muse]

I agree with Kid R about how I would've moved the warrior, but settling the pHill still seems fine to me. The extra production is very nice, imho.

Question: How does aggressive AI work with Random Personalities?

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Question: How does aggressive AI work with Random Personalities?

Random personalities just picks the personality of some leader normally included in the game. It's not a random personality like "all the variables are random," it's a randomly-selected standard AI. Aggressive AI just makes them build more troops and declare more easily.

 

[coanda]

Round 7!

1N on the plains-hill looks like the right move to me. My experience on Marathon is slim, but I believe that'll let you go warrior-workboat-worker while going Fishing - Mining - BW, with all the timings lining up pretty well (warrior finishes about the same time as Fishing, work boat about the same time as growing to size-2, worker about the same time as BW).

 

[kossin]

Forest spam, you might have 2 hidden resources.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Meeting the Neighbors (Turns 1-82, Years 4000-2770 BC)

I reload the initial autosave to see if a different camera angle could have shown me that the SW tile was forested:

Spoiler :

Sure enough, Kid R was right, it does. It also shows that the NE tile looks to be the coast wrapping around:

Spoiler :

Well, if I were a little more careful (or had just waited for comments), I would have known where to move my warrior. So I'll allow this reload. (Getting new info is cheating, but not being sloppy is, well, just not being sloppy). I send him NW and find:

Spoiler :

Hmmm, 1N picks up a floodplains, but also two waters. Not a great exchange. Plus, I'm betting the plains hill is a resource. So I settle in place.

First tech is fishing. I'll work the forest-plains-hill when it completes. Since Thebes won't be able to grow to size 2 before then, I start on a worker, and go for the extra commerce instead of the hammer to get Fishing faster. (Rule of thumb: Take what's good now).

Spoiler :

When the borders pop, I swap to the forest-silk to pick up an extra hammer.

After 8 turns, I meet Saladin from the South, and think "Oh, good, a friendly neighbor" before kicking myself about the random personalities. Five turns later I meet Shaka, and suddenly I'm really glad for the random personalities. On the whole, the suspense is more fun than knowing who's going to rush me and who's going to be a kitten.

3715 BC: Fishing completes. I stop the worker and make a workboat on the forest-plains-hill.

Spoiler :

I should mention, I don't have a ton of experience with coastal starts, so I'm not sure this opening is optimal. That's part of why I'm documenting it so carefully, so you can all have fun picking it apart

Next tech: Mining --> Bronze. I'm hoping the hill is copper, but either way, I need to get chopping before I can develop anything.

Spoiler :

3490: The workboat complets, and I finish the worker. He won't have a lot to do, but mining the hill will speed up future workboats, and he can start making a road to Saladin (both for trade and for axes).

Spoiler :

After the worker, another work boat. Thebes grows to size 2 on the clams, then works clams plus mined hill until the workboat completes. Then it swaps to both clams, grows to size 3, and starts on another worker and a settler.

Spoiler :

2770: Bronze Working completes. No luck on the plains hill, but there is a copper very close by:

Spoiler :

The surrounding land:

Spoiler :

I'm considering going for the Great Lighthouse, so I make a quick dotmap to see if I can grab enough coastal cities:

Spoiler :

Edit: Realized to move the Copper city 1S to grab the Dye. (No resource pointer, but you can see it in the jungle). Also, I'll probably move the silks city 1NE, to get fresh water and get more overlap with Thebes's cottages. The cow-sugar one I'm not tied to, and it'll probably move to block as much land as possible, working with the Western gold city. See, newer players, my initial dotmaps are terrible, too

In practice, I'll probably stretch more, grab the gold to the West, and try to seal off land with creative borders, then use these as backfill later.

As for Thebes, it looks like a good commerce capital. Just enough food to work all the tiles, lots of riverside grassland, a few hills for production but nothing crazy. I'll probably cottage it up and build Moai and Oxford there. The overlap from neighboring cities will help to pop the cottages before Thebes grows into them.

Of course, for now, it will work the clams, three hills, and the horse that will hopefully appear.

I've met Saladin, Shaka and Stalin, but only found Saladin. Remember, with random personalities, we don't know anything about them yet.

I see 3 possible plans:

1. Axe rush. Found the copper / clam city, axe rush Saladin. He's protective, so I probably can't take his capital, but his nearby city is on flatland, and it's the Hindu holy city. Buddhism appears to be on the other continent, so there's a good chance at Hinduism becoming dominant here, for a very valuable shrine.

2. Great Lighthouse. This is a continent, but probably not a huge one with only half the AIs, and with the inlet to the West of my capital, I can grab quite a few coastal cities. I have plenty of chops for settlers afterward, but it would be a significant tech sidetrack away from Animal Husbandry and Writing.

3. Straight-out expansion. Tech Animal Husbandry for the nearby cows (and hopefully a horse on the un-forested grassland), grab as much land as possible. With all the jungle, almost every city needs a cow for food, even the Western gold city.

On option 1, I'm thinking it might be better to let Saladin spread the religion, then claim it once it's already dominant. Also, Saladin is off to the side, and I can expand just fine to the West, and maybe even box him in. So I'm leaning against option 1.

Option 2 is nice. Without any economic trait, GLH will help a lot, and I can still claim some cities and work some mines for now. I'm thinking GLH will ultimately get me more cities, since long-term it will give me a higher tech rate, and I'll have plenty of chops left over after the wonder to rush settlers out.

Thoughts?

 

[MeowZeDung]

I've met Saladin, Shaka and Stalin, but only found Saladin

You can see Stalin's borders poking out of the fog NW of your Capitol.

 

[coanda]

Just a thought - I would have carefully considered settling 2N when the warrior spotted that wheat, with no Mining, no Fishing, and no AGR/Hunting/AH resources available. The warrior actually would then have an extra turn, which would mean spotting the cows before moving the second time, so 2N 1W for wheat + cows + clams becomes an option too. Then you can actually go AH -> BW -> Fishing, discover whether you get your UU early, and worry about finicky stuff like work boats once you've got a settler built.

As it stands now, I'd say AH. Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but it looks like there is no good spot to put a city which gets copper, so it'd be nice if you could rely on horses instead. Axe-rushing a PRO deity with holy-city culture and with a very weak second city makes me a bit nervous, and GLH will take long enough that you'll probably lose gold-cows-rice to the west (which looks like the nicest city spot for miles around, not least because it's on a hill so if Saladin turns out to be a psychopath it'd be a good place to direct his attention).

Edit: On second thought, gold-cows-rice might not be quite as great as I thought. No forests to chop, and no food or production resource to work to get a monument out. Still a good city, but no longer a great one.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

You can see Stalin's borders poking out of the fog NW of your Capitol.

Good eye. I'm not nearly observant enough about those kind of things. Thanks.

@Coanda Good input. Remember, I'm Creative Hatty, so no need for a monument in the gold city. Also, the copper city is weak without Cre, but with Cre, it gets the clam and becomes pretty good. (And if I stop to think and realize it doesn't need copper in the center ring, I can move it 1S to get a Dye).

I didn't make a big deal about the timings in my turnset, but I'll have time to chop 1 settler while Sailing finishes, and probably a 3rd worker while Masonry does. So I can grab the gold city and still get GLH. But if I don't grab copper or research AH until after Masonry, I'll have my pants down if Saladin or Stalin turn out to have Monty's personality. (And we know Saladin has copper already).

Another possibility: Research AH before Sailing, and chop out 2-3 settlers before chopping GLH, if it's still available. A more robust opening, but a greater chance of missing the wonder.

Also, a note I just added to the previous post's dotmap screenshot:
Edit: Realized to move the Copper city 1S to grab the Dye. (No resource pointer, but you can see it in the jungle). Also, I'll probably move the silks city 1NE, to get fresh water and get more overlap with Thebes's cottages. The cow-sugar one I'm not tied to, and it'll probably move to block as much land as possible, working with the Western gold city. See, newer players, my initial dotmaps are terrible, too

One more edit: GLH is 600 hammers. A chop is 60 hammers. Figure I can get two 2-pop whips (60-80 hammers each), and another 60 or so hammers from working the mine, means I'll need 6-7 chops for GLH. That leaves 6-7 chops inside the BFC, and 2 outside it, for workers and settlers. Which should yield 2 workers, 2 settlers, and a bit left over. Which is making AH-Sailing-Masonry look pretty good, with 2 settlers before going for GLH.

 

[coanda]

Whoah. Somehow totally missed that last screenshot with your dotmap; didn't realize there was an extra clam out to the east. That definitely makes copper-clam-silk a solid choice for a second city. Still think the gold city is a good third site though if you can get it... gold means it'll more than pay for itself, and that plus cow city would block off space for 2 northern cities.

And, because it just has to be said...
On a clear day, if you look out to the northeast from your palace in Thebes, the distant borders of Stalin are visible. That's right, you can see Russia from your house!

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

You Kids Get Off My Lawn (Turns 82-120, Years 2770-2300 BC)

Thanks for the comments guys. Here's the plan:

• Tech Animal Husbandry, Sailing and Masonry, in that order. The bare minimum worker techs, then go for GLH.
• Chop chop chop. Settle the Western gold city and the copper city to the SE. Also, 4 workers if possible, though I do want to grow while building a lighthouse.
• Chop the Great Lighthouse. Whip overflow from workers is quite good on marathon, so grab another worker or two here, too.
• Re-grow from whips as quickly as possible (so make 1-2 farms).
• Nonstop settlers, particularly for coastal cities.
• New cities focus on military. One distraction (GLH) is quite enough, thank you.

After that, it's probably Writing then Iron Working, to clear all this jungle. And if Saladin turns out to be a kitten, aim to conquer him after Alphabet (for espionage revolts). To prepare, focus EPs on him now.

And now, the turnset:

Early on, I get a military Top 10 list:

Spoiler :

No surprise that I'm at the bottom, but I'm worried that the AIs on my continent are the top 3. Suggests I have psychos, not builders.

My scouting warrior discovers a reachable island:

Spoiler :

I'll need to send a boat over and see if there are other AIs. It's too far away for me to colonize, though. (You can the gold city's dot in the NE of the shot, and that's already a stretch for me).

2430: Stalin settles in my back yard. I'm remembering the terror that is the Deity earlygame.

Spoiler :

That's the same turn my first settler completes. I send him West to settle the gold city, since I don't want Stalin grabbing it. (I've scouted East, and I don't see any indication that Saladin is going for the copper city. All the same, I chop another worker then another settler to grab it).

Two turns later, Animal Husbandry completes. And:

Spoiler :

Saladin has the only horses around. My hidden-resource sensors have betrayed me!

2380: W Gold founded, with a worker on the way to mine the gold.

Spoiler :

Over the next few turns, Saladin and then Stalin settle on my borders:

Spoiler :

At least they're in spots that I want, so I can take the city instead of razing and moving.

Alarm bells should be going off. They halfway do, but I'm playing as I groggily wake up, and simply continue with the GLH plan for another 20 minutes (40 turns).

Nothing really happens in that time. Saladin's borders pop, cutting me off, but I knew that would happen. (He founded Hinduism earlier). I get Hinduism in Thebes and swap, getting Saladin to pleased, and from his lack of buildup, I get the feeling he's a techer not a zealot. (He was also #3 on the top 10 militaries, and his expansion to my borders is natural, while Stalin's is a stretch). Stalin sends a few archers and spears to his cities, but doesn't look to be preparing for war. No one goes into fist status.

Really, what changes from 7:55 AM to 8:18 AM is me. I wake up and realize how dumb I am to be chopping the Great Lighthouse instead of 10 axes.

Which is a shame, really, because my GLH execution was beautiful: Masonry in 1920 BC, a lighthouse 2-pop whipped to overflow 87 hammers, a worker ready to be whipped for another ~90, 3 forests pre-chopped, and two workers chopping more. SE Copper was already online, working developed clams and copper. The only flaw was a missing granary for the whips. Well, that, and two psychos boxing me in.

Spoiler :

So I'll reload from 2300 and make a plan. (A long time ago I set autosaves for 50 turns, since that's about 2 techs on marathon).

We'll need to make friends with one of them. Saladin is the natural choice, since (1) he's religious, and therefore easy to make happy, (2) he's protective and settled on a hill, so a bad target, and (3) his capital is closer, meaning he can reinforce more easily.

Protecting W Gold: I could open borders with Saladin and move some axes there. Or just tech archery and let W Gold defend itself, which is probably the better plan, since I want my axes on offense, not defense.

Tech path: I already have copper, so Iron Working isn't a priority. But with all that food in Thebes, granaries are. So I'll swap research to Pottery.

EPs: Probably won't come into play, but I'll swap EPs to Stalin, just in case. (I'd forgotten to swap them to Saladin, so they've been even until now).

Builds: Finish out the copper city, maybe grab the cow-wheat just North of Thebes, then go nuts with axes. Sad to see my wonder go away, but getting Stalin off my butt is way more important.

War prep next turnset.

 

[CaF]

The thing that i don't understand here is why you want to go for the The Great Lighthouse - which slows you down - when your start is already slow to the max.

I know the primary line of thought that is: water start -> lighthouse needed anyways -> TGL with some extra cities -> $$$$.

My line of thought with that start would be: VOMIT -> ONLY 2 clams -> no good resource to build workers/settlers on -> VOMIT -> TGL done -> i am boxed in at 1 city -> VOMIT -> time to get some breakfast.

The start really is already slow enough for my taste and therefore there is no room for any detours.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

^ Indeed, you are correct. Good to see the cues I should have picked up on, so I can spot them next time.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Deity is Hard (Turns 120-210, Years 2300-1400 BC)

So, I reload 2300 BC and start building up to attack Stalin.

I start by settling some more cities. 2200, SE Copper:

Spoiler :

This city would be a terrible city without Creative.

Thebes builds a work boat for the clams.

Meanwhile, my scout warrior finds a road between Stalin's mainland and his city on my borders.

Spoiler :

From here on, he follows workers around, pillaging the road back and forth all turnset.

2150: Pottery completes. I build granaries in all my cities.

2070: Hinduism spreads to me.

Spoiler :

Again, I swap instead of waiting for him to ask. Because I'm dumb. It does get him to friendly, though, which makes him a lot less likely to declare on me.

Most advanced top 10 comes out.

Spoiler :

Saladin is high up, Stalin is 2nd to last (only ahead of me). Which makes me think that Saladin is a religious techer, while Stalin has Shaka's normal AI.

1910: Archery completes. Now I can defend my cities without axes, and W Gold can make useful troops.

Next: Writing, for cheap libraries.

Spoiler :

1860: Wheat founded. Gets wheat and cows, and shares some cottages with Thebes.

Spoiler :

That's the last of my cities for now. Thebes and SE Copper work on barracks, then axemen.

1780: Saladin founds Basra, cutting Stalin off.

Spoiler :

Well this is just ridiculous. We're all settling on top of one another.

Stalin swaps to Hinduism, giving me a chance for more insight into the AIs. Saladin is already at +5 from religion, while Stalin barely registers:

Spoiler :

1590: Saladin will open borders. When I go to make that trade, I notice he'll also liberate Basra:

Spoiler :

We just had a thread about this, but I'd never seen it before. And I don't have any culture on the city. Weird.

Soon after, I get writing and chop a library in Wheat. Thebes stays dedicated to axes, and SE Copper and W Gold make archers for city defense.

1400 BC: I notice Stalin has walls in his forward city. No culture mind you, but 50% defense from walls, and a ton of units:

Spoiler :

Frankly, I'm at a loss. No idea how to handle it.

Was the forward expansion for W Gold a mistake? Should I have just settled near-by cities, and accepted having not much land for a while?

Should I have simply ignored Stalin's expansion and grabbed more cities, hoping to not be declared on? That seems too much like relying on luck.

Skipped Wheat and gone straight for axes? Not sure how a few more would help me now.

Ignored the threats all along and stuck with Great Lighthouse, hoping to culture crush Stalin? That seems too much like becoming the AI who builds the Pyramids for you.

Should I continue building up to attack Stalin, while teching Alphabet to spy the defenses down? Even without walls, I'll still lose a bunch of troops, and it seems like I've done something wrong to be forced into this corner.

Tech to Catapults, then attack? That's a long way off, and if that's the plan, I feel like I should have gone with GLH.

Are some Deity games simply not winnable, or at least, not possible to get a decent opening? Or is my sense of opening simply not adjusted to Deity, and in fact, this opening is perfectly fine?

What do you think? Open to anyone, but I'm particularly interested in experienced Deity players' feedback.

Thanks.

 

[coanda]

As someone who doesn't play Deity, let me say...
Holy ****.

Umm... yeah, that's all I've got. I guess any sort of rush looks out of the question now. Maybe you can bribe one of them to attack the other, then mop up once the cities are more weakly defended?

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

^ I know right?

Stirring up a fight is a good idea, but there's no tech trades. Which I play with because forces me to drive the win myself, not stay on the sidelines until my enemies pummel each other sufficiently for me to jump in. No disrespect to folks who enjoy that sort of kingmaker game, it just doesn't do it for me.

 

[CaF]

Very gross spot you got there. Ever thought about rerolling extremely bad starts? I mean without tech trading you will never get your butt out of these kinds of spots, or do i miss something?

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

^ That's what I was thinking. But I'm inexperienced with Deity, so thought I might just be missing something. Trying to not pass up the opportunity to learn from my errors and all.

 

[JammerUno]

Frankly, I don't know why you would try an axerush on deiy when your neighnours are PRO and AGG, and yes, the gold city was a huge mistake. When you start near AI like this, you need to block. Usually you can forgo thinking about that, but here... you could've blocked off land for another two cities if you had settled NW of the cow south of Yekaterinburg first.

third city could have grabbed the copper, what with it being in jungle anyway and with such a strong capital it could've worked. Now you're straring at shock axes. Even without the walls this wouldn't have worked, since Stalins axes will just crush yours.