Rhye's and Fall RAND: Preview #2

[kbk]

My one question about cities by civ is when major modern cities were founded by other civs.

Example, America... Naturally, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Honolulu, and Charlotte (among others) were all founded by other nations. Are we saying that newly founded American cities won't use these names as they didn't found the cities IRL?

I am happy to help with the American lists if need be

After all, many great European cities were founded by the Romans...

Actually Houston is arguably American. Okay, it was founded by the Republic of Texas.

The problem with excluding any cities founded by other civs is your going to have some wacky lists. For instance, instead of Chicago, we might get Topeka. I think we should look for cities that are iconic of the civ they represent.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Philadelphia should be American. It was the capital of the nation until Washington D.C. was built.

I think most American cities founded by other civs should be American. Britain, France, and Spain have plenty of other cities to gather from.

 

[RedRalph]

Sorry to bug people, but even having read this thread and preview 1, I still dont understand what this is, can anyone give me a brief explanation?

 

[SadoMacho]

Elements of RFC like city naming, stability,... on a random generated map and not on the classical RFC earth map

 

[Churchill's Hat]

Philadelphia and Boston should both be American. Philly is were the Constitution was written (along with the original capital and is still 5th in population), and Boston was a major center of the Revolution, so putting it under Britain would be so horrifically wrong, especially since there are cities of much less importance on the American list.

 

[RedRalph]

Elements of RFC like city naming, stability,... on a random generated map and not on the classical RFC earth map

ah, OK.... so a Civ5 preview then

 

[Barak]

I am in agreement that for a Random map game owner of the city shoudl be the Iconic owner, not necesarily who founded the city.

I am in agreement that America would look really strange without Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston and Detroit.

The question at hand was whether we were assigning ownership to a city based on founding or ownership during the cities importance.


Afterall, are we putting Cadiz on the Spanish list, or the Carthaginian (since there is no Phoenician civ although the Carthaginians were basically Phoenician) or the Arabs, who also owned and expanded the importance of the city.

 

[dionysos2048]

One of my favorite feature of RFC is that when you conquer a city, its name changes, like Mediolanum becomes Milan or Mailand, Lugdunum Lyon, Etc... Will that be in RFC RAND? If so I imagine that'd involve quite o lot of extra work for the name lists.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

"accents are important!!! Consider that with just a wrong accent, renaming system won't work. Use the character map for accents you haven't got on your keyboard", Rhye, post 1.

dionysos2048 does this answer your question.

 

[dionysos2048]

^ Hmmm, thanks for that MAM. I take it the renaming system is seperate from the city lists then.

 

[Virdrago]

@Al-Iskander: I got a lot of these cities from reading about the Mongols a few years ago. I did check Wiki for verification on some I was unsure about, and found out that sometimes, the books included cities that weren't founded until the 1800s! (I left those out of my list.) You do have a better grasp than I do, since you are actually there, so I will not argue with you, especially about the Chinese/Persian/Arab cities. I'd like to have Serai and Berke Serai, though.

I agree, your idea on "outside the heartland" being out-of-continent does make more sense.

@Barak: I personally would have Cadiz as Gades for the Carthaginians. For the most part Carthage inherited a lot of the Phoenician colonies during their rise. Still, I don't know if there will be city name changes (when taken by another civ) or not. If not, Jerusalem may be in three or four lists (like Cadiz, even).

 

[Virdrago]

Again, from years of reading history books (I guess I am a civ-nerd), Wiki-backed when possible, here are some Khmer cities (I don't think anyone here is from Cambodia!):

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent

Angkor
Yasodharapura - first Khmer capital built at Angkor. Sanskrit translation: "Holy City", or "Capital City" by extension.
Isanapura - capital of the Khmer kingdom of Chenla.
Hariharalaya - another former capital.
Sambhupura - captured by Jayavarman II. On the Mekong.
Ba Phnom
Suryaparvata
Wat Phu - temple complex associated with Shrestapura, a Chenla or Champa city. Shrestapura may be a better option, since its a city.
Mahendraparvata - founded by Jayavarman II.
Aninditapura
Lovek - capital in the sixteenth century.
Pursat
Koh Ker - capital under Jayavarman IV and Hasavarman II.
Pimai - also Phimai.
Udong
Mahanokor - could also be Wat Nokor?
Siem Reap - means "defeat of Siam".
Beng Melea - Ancient Khmer city.
Phnom Penh - current capital, after Koh Ker.
Batdambang - founded in the 11th century.
Lomphat
Kampong Svay - another ancient Khmer city.
Kracheh - also called Kratie.


2- for coastal cities in the continent

Prey Nokor - Now Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). Main Khmer port until the 17th century.
Chaudoc - Now in southern Vietnam.
Kampot

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent

Klong Thom - supposedly in modern Thailand.

4- for coastal cities in another continent

Indrapura - Cham city conquered by the Khmer. Today's Dong Duong in Vietnam.
Kauthara - Another Cham city captured by the Khmer, around 945.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Rhye: since there are so many duplicate names of same cities (Jerusalem has probably 5 or 6 names depending on the civ), can you make it so that once its founded, other civs cannot use their name for that city? E.g. if China founds Beijing, Mongolia cannot found Khanbaliq/Dadu. So that in the end, there will just be one city with that name. Of course other civs are welcome to conquer it and change the name.

 

[Rhye]

A few thoughts:

- I think that we should keep things simple and assign a city only to one civ.

- Please no ficticial names

- Use RFC city names where possible. Open CityNameManager.py, it will help a lot. For example, to make sure you didn't mispell it or used another translitteration

- I'm not posting here very often because I'm working on other aspects of the mod, and fixing bugs. So, my idea is to gather all the lists when they are done, do a quick check myself and add them to the already complete mod

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

@Rhye:

Do you mind removing Philadelphia from the English list and replacing it with something else (Halifax, Hamilton or Nassau)? Could you also replace Los Angeles on the Spanish list with something else as well?
We need these cities for the American list.

Thanks

Is this okay with you Rhye?

Also, I don't mean to pester or nag you, but any ideas on a release date because I just can't wait for RFC random.

 

[Virdrago]

Babylon, and then I'll stop and let other's opinions and lists take shape:

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent

Babylon
Erech/Uruk
Lasar/Larsa
Nippur
Akkad/Agade
Eshnunna
Kish
Isin
Zariqum
Opis
Borsippa/Barsippa
Anatho
Sippar
Zuruban


2- for coastal cities in the continent

Eridu
Ur
Lagash
Kesh - not the same as Kish (see above).

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent

Calchu/Calah - Assyrian city of Nimrud.
Cuthah - Assyrian or Iranian plateau city.
Mari - west of original Babylonian power.
Thapsacus - tributary from Syria.
Shushan - conquered by Akkadians and Babylonians at least three times.

4- for coastal cities in another continent

Any constructive criticism would, of course, be appreciated.

 

[Al-Iskander]

A few thoughts:
- I think that we should keep things simple and assign a city only to one civ.

Fair enough. Do you want us to wrangle out who gets what city, or will you let us know who gets what?

- Please no ficticial names

Word. I'll amend and re-post my Mongol list to reflect that.

- Use RFC city names where possible. Open CityNameManager.py, it will help a lot. For example, to make sure you didn't mispell it or used another translitteration

I don't have a personal computer to open that up on, and I don't want to download the whole mod onto my work computer. Can someone send me just this file, or PM me the Mongolian city list from it? Thanks if you can

 

[Al-Iskander]

Mongolia City Lists, V3.0, this time with even less commentary. Fictional cities removed, both Sarai cities added to list III. Moved Khazaran to list 4, since it's not anywhere near Mongolia.

I- Non-coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Kharakhorum- 1220
2. Hohhot- 1580
3. Ulaanbaatar- 1639 as Orgoo 1924 renamed to Ulaanbaatar)
4. Erkhuud - 1652 , likely to be assigned to Russia as Irkutsk
5. Ulaan-Ude (Ulan-Ude) -1666 as Udinskoye, 1775 renamed to Verkhneudinsk, and 1934 to Ulaan-Ude
6. Amarbayasgalant – 1727
7. Choibalsan- 1800s-ish as Bayan Tumen, renamed in 1941
7(b). Chahar – (alternative because Choibalsan was a meanie) - 1912
8. Sukhbaatar - 1940
9. Darkhan - 1961
10. Erdenet - 1975

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Khanbaliq – 1264 (closest to costal, probably to be assigned to China as Beijing)
2. Khovsgol - 1931 (debatable validity)
3. Khalkh Gol - site of major fighting in 1939 (debatable validity)
4. Olkhon - 1987
5. Uvs Nuur - A lake, no permanent settlements until the 1930s.
6. Hulun Nuur - A lake, no permanent settlements until the 1930s.
7. [Empty Slot]
8. [Empty Slot]
9. [Empty Slot]
10. [Empty Slot]

III- Non-coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Samarkand - Originally founded in 700BC-ish (debatable validity)
2. Bokhara – officially 500BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1220 (debatable validity)
3. Tashkent – 400BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1219 (debatable validity)
4. Kashgar – 76BC-ish (debatable validity)
5. Urumqi – founded by the Tang Dynasty in 0AD-ish, dubbed Urumqi in 1954 (debatable validity)
6. Lhasa - 641AD–ish (debatable validity)
7. Sarai Berke – 1245-ish
8. Shine Sarai (New Sarai) – before 1395
9. Kazan' - mid 1400s
10. Khem-Beldyr - 1914 (debatable validity)

IV- Coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Khazaran - Between 600 and 1000AD (very debatable validity)
2. Astrakhan - existed in the 1200s, but rebuilt in 1459-ish.
3. Elista - 1865
4. [Empty Slot]
5. [Empty Slot]
6. [Empty Slot]
7. [Empty Slot]
8. [Empty Slot]
9. [Empty Slot]
10. [Empty Slot]

NEED HELP on the first city for List II. Assuming Khanbaliq/Beijing is awarded to China, Mongolia will be left with the name of a particularly small settlement on a inland lake (Khovsgol) as its capital, even if that lake is called an Ocean by the locals. This would amuse my Mongolian friends to no end, but I'm not sure it's the best thing to do. Also, neither Erkhuud/Irkutsk nor Ulan-Ude are truly coastal, both being over 50 miles from Baikal, which is still a lake.

Will Mongolia's capital always be Karakorum no matter where the Mongols start, and if not does anyone know a city that could be the coastal capital?

 

[Rhye]

Take your decisions, I'll just do a final revision. That was the point of letting you partecipate.

Release date is likely to be mid-July.

 

[Al-Iskander]

In that case, I’m voting for assigning Khanbaliq to China as Beijing and Erkhuud to Russia as Irkutsk, but keeping Astrakhan as Mongol (in contravention of Lone Wolf’s list, sorry!). Because of this I also recommend having Kharakhorum be the capital no matter where the Mongols spawn, due to the lack of Mongolian coastal cities in our world’s history.

Changes in this version: 1) removed Khanbaliq and Erkhuud, 2) removed empty slot placeholders, “debatable validity” indicators and certain other notes 3) tried to bring spelling into line with the CityNameManager file as much as possible, 4) dropped Chahar’s status as alternative, since I removed Erkhuud.

I- Non-coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Kharakhorum- 1220
2. Hohhot- 1580
3. Ulaanbaatar - 1639
4. Ulaan-Ude (Ulan-Ude) -1666
5. Amarbayasgalant – 1727
6. Chojbalsan – 1800s
7. Chahar – 1912
8. Sukhbaatar - 1940
9. Darkhan - 1961
10. Erdenet - 1975

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Khovsgol - 1931
2. Khalkh Gol - site of major fighting in 1939
3. Olkhon - 1987
4. Uvs Nuur - Lake, permanent settlement in 1930s
5. Hulun Nuur - Lake, permanent settlement in 1930s

III- Non-coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Samarqand - 700BC-ish
2. Bukhara - 500BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1220
3. Tashkent – 400BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1219
4. Kasgár – 76BC-ish
5. Urumqi – founded by the Tang Dynasty in 0AD-ish, dubbed Urumqi in 1954
6. Lhasa - 641AD–ish
7. Sarai Berke – 1245-ish
8. Shine Sarai (New Sarai, which was separate, while Sarai Berke and Sarai Batu were probably the same city) – before 1395
9. Kazan - mid 1400s
10. Khem-Beldyr – 1914

IV- Coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Khazaran - Between 600 and 1000AD
2. Astrakhan - existed in the 1200s
3. Elista – 1865

Final Note: Unless someone else wants to toss in more suggestions, I’m gonna stick a fork in this list and call it done