Rhye's Catapult
- Thread starter Rhye
- Start date
, but yes, too slow game would be not a welcome move
Gunner
Emperor
Hi everyone! I was traveling this weekend so that’s why I wasn't able to post at all. Seems like you've made a lot of progress. This idea of being able to tell the AI where to settle its cities looks to me like it should be really good.
I see that you are trying to match up their appearance with some exact date that they should be attributed to, which would obviously throw my idea off a bit. My opinion is that it isn't supremely important to try and get every specific date correct, rather that we should try to do the best job we can following a general model of how history went. By having them all show up around the 8th and 9th centuries, Rome would not fall until the 8th and 9th centuries, which would be blatantly wrong. Having them show up in the 5th and 6th centuries would model that it much better. And it’s not like the barbarian invaders of the Roman Empire did nothing to try and rule the areas they had conquered, most of them settled down there and became the rulers. They eventually melded with the inhabitants and became part of the later official nation. So I don't think it would be overly unrealistic to mark the beginning of France, England, and Spain with the barbarian invasion.
Again, I understand how it would be nice to be able to point to a specific date in history to justify our choice of civilization birth times, but I think that in the end it’s more important to try and recreate the general ideas of history within the confines of the game.
Germany I think should be kept where it was, sometime in the 2nd century BC so that the Romans have something interesting to do for that part of the game.
I think that having Spain, France, and England all showing up at once would be a good way to balance things out. I wrote out a post before about the benefits of it. The thing is, however, that I was advocating having them all show up together closer to sometime in the early 6th century, meaning that England and Spain would have had to be moved back some. That way they would all show up right as the Roman Empire was supposed to fall and they could simulate the barbarian attacks against it.Rhye said:
I see that you are trying to match up their appearance with some exact date that they should be attributed to, which would obviously throw my idea off a bit. My opinion is that it isn't supremely important to try and get every specific date correct, rather that we should try to do the best job we can following a general model of how history went. By having them all show up around the 8th and 9th centuries, Rome would not fall until the 8th and 9th centuries, which would be blatantly wrong. Having them show up in the 5th and 6th centuries would model that it much better. And it’s not like the barbarian invaders of the Roman Empire did nothing to try and rule the areas they had conquered, most of them settled down there and became the rulers. They eventually melded with the inhabitants and became part of the later official nation. So I don't think it would be overly unrealistic to mark the beginning of France, England, and Spain with the barbarian invasion.
Again, I understand how it would be nice to be able to point to a specific date in history to justify our choice of civilization birth times, but I think that in the end it’s more important to try and recreate the general ideas of history within the confines of the game.
Germany I think should be kept where it was, sometime in the 2nd century BC so that the Romans have something interesting to do for that part of the game.
Test - King level:
On this level there are lots of wars...
Date/turns left/seconds of loading time
1000 300 8
1300 270 11
1500 250 14
1600 230 15
1700 210 22
1800 190 23 Colonization in 1750-1800
1840 170 25
1880 150 22 (!)
1900 140 26
1920 130 33
1930 120 37
1940 110 40
1950 100 33 (!)
Well, will loading time reach the 1 minute threshold?
On this level there are lots of wars...
Date/turns left/seconds of loading time
1000 300 8
1300 270 11
1500 250 14
1600 230 15
1700 210 22
1800 190 23 Colonization in 1750-1800
1840 170 25
1880 150 22 (!)
1900 140 26
1920 130 33
1930 120 37
1940 110 40
1950 100 33 (!)
Well, will loading time reach the 1 minute threshold?
Gunner
Emperor
I think one of the bigger determining factors for loading times is your RAM. My processor is 2.6 GHz (so slightly worse than V. Soma's) yet I have 3 GB of RAM, so my loading times generally stay under 15 seconds. I haven't actually kept track, but I will next game to see exactly. My main point is that RAM is probably the cheapest component of your computer to upgrade (as opposed to a graphics card or processor) yet it makes quite a difference if you do so.
I think that Germany can be a problem cos I've seen them taking Lutetia...
I still support the 8th/9th Century period cos I can't find any possible earlier date for Spain (first there were Visigoths, then Arabs) and hardly for England. And because that late start for all of them (including Germany) allows to create barbarian invasions which will attempt to destroy the classical civs (as fall of civs has been disabled...)
After all, why should they exactly match 476AD to match the fall of Rome, if Rome hasn't fallen??
BTW stay tuned. I'll try to make a new version tonight
I still support the 8th/9th Century period cos I can't find any possible earlier date for Spain (first there were Visigoths, then Arabs) and hardly for England. And because that late start for all of them (including Germany) allows to create barbarian invasions which will attempt to destroy the classical civs (as fall of civs has been disabled...)
After all, why should they exactly match 476AD to match the fall of Rome, if Rome hasn't fallen??
BTW stay tuned. I'll try to make a new version tonight
loading times - part 2
1955 95 44
1960 90 42
1965 85 35
1970 80 42
1980 70 39
1985 65 51
1990 60 47
1995 55 53
2000 50 48
this is a pleasant surprise...
China will have spaceship in 10-20 turns or so,
while he also conquers all Northern Africa...
1955 95 44
1960 90 42
1965 85 35
1970 80 42
1980 70 39
1985 65 51
1990 60 47
1995 55 53
2000 50 48
this is a pleasant surprise...
China will have spaceship in 10-20 turns or so,
while he also conquers all Northern Africa...
Gunner
Emperor
I think it'd be fine historically to have the Germans show up at the same time as the other new Euros. The only reason I thought it might be good to have them show up earlier was just for game play so that the Romans have someone to fight against and talk to. If they are moved back I think there should be a barb city put in their place.
I never did say that the fall has to take place exactly at 476, in fact the date 476 really means very little in of itself. Rome had already become rather irrelevant as a city by that time, and Rome as an empire (I'm just talking about the Western Roman Empire) began losing its control over its provinces in the late 4th century. For example, the emperor Valentinian II who ruled from 375-392 only controlled Italy and Illyricum. Once into the 5th century the Western Roman Empire essentially existed only in name in most areas and really only directly controlled Italy and a few other locations. It was a very gradual process.
So by having the barbarian invasions only start in the 6th century, it is already about 200 years behind the general time when things like that really happened. Having them in the 9th century is way off.
I don't think it really matters if you can find an exact date to point to and say, "That is when the civilization (not country) of Spain started." Imho is fine to just agree that the Vandals conquered and began administering Spain sometime in the 5th century since it captures the idea of Rome gradually losing control of Iberia throughout the 4th, 5th, and 6th centuries. If you really want an exact date, then wikipedia (which I know isn't really a good source, but its easy to find stuff from it quickly and I don't feel like spending time to find it from a real source) says that " Iberia was taken over by the Visigoths after 410."
As I see it, there is a period of time for each of these countries where it doesn't really make complete sense for either the Romans to be ruling or for a centralized native government to be ruling either. One essentially is forced into choosing the lesser of two evils, and in this case I think it makes more sense to have the native countries ruling since there were no Roman soldiers or leaders physically left there at the time. So therefore we are forced to accept a centralized state to rule over these new civs, yet I think that that makes about as much sense as having a Greek civ which contains both Athens and Sparta right next to eachother.
I hope I'm not sounding rude or anything with this, I'm just trying to help get this mod become the best it can be. Have a nice day everybody!
I never did say that the fall has to take place exactly at 476, in fact the date 476 really means very little in of itself. Rome had already become rather irrelevant as a city by that time, and Rome as an empire (I'm just talking about the Western Roman Empire) began losing its control over its provinces in the late 4th century. For example, the emperor Valentinian II who ruled from 375-392 only controlled Italy and Illyricum. Once into the 5th century the Western Roman Empire essentially existed only in name in most areas and really only directly controlled Italy and a few other locations. It was a very gradual process.
So by having the barbarian invasions only start in the 6th century, it is already about 200 years behind the general time when things like that really happened. Having them in the 9th century is way off.
I don't think it really matters if you can find an exact date to point to and say, "That is when the civilization (not country) of Spain started." Imho is fine to just agree that the Vandals conquered and began administering Spain sometime in the 5th century since it captures the idea of Rome gradually losing control of Iberia throughout the 4th, 5th, and 6th centuries. If you really want an exact date, then wikipedia (which I know isn't really a good source, but its easy to find stuff from it quickly and I don't feel like spending time to find it from a real source) says that " Iberia was taken over by the Visigoths after 410."
As I see it, there is a period of time for each of these countries where it doesn't really make complete sense for either the Romans to be ruling or for a centralized native government to be ruling either. One essentially is forced into choosing the lesser of two evils, and in this case I think it makes more sense to have the native countries ruling since there were no Roman soldiers or leaders physically left there at the time. So therefore we are forced to accept a centralized state to rule over these new civs, yet I think that that makes about as much sense as having a Greek civ which contains both Athens and Sparta right next to eachother.
Why wouldn't this point hold true if they all started a bit earlier together?Rhye said:
I hope I'm not sounding rude or anything with this, I'm just trying to help get this mod become the best it can be. Have a nice day everybody!
Willowmound
Wordbug
Rhye said:
Rhye, were you planning on incorporating the new civs when Warlords is released? Because if you are, imagine having the Vikings spawn years before England! I think 829AD is a bit late. I'd do some research and suggest another starting date, but I don't have time for that right now...
Willowmound said:
yes I am.
829AD is the first date I found of united England
Gunner said:
Because if they are a little late there wiil be an enough long post-classical era in which barbarians can do their work
wow, in the end, when China and Germany killed off some civs,
loading time went down )
2005 45 47
2010 40 36
2015 35 37
2020 30 41
2025 25 32
2030 20 34
2035 15 36
2037 13 36
so we have a strange but great graph:
it says that loading time with my 3GH Prescott proc and 1 Gb RAM
is about 45 sec at max., if we see trends
As a bonus, check out this end-map of v026 from 2038:
Brutal...
loading time went down )
2005 45 47
2010 40 36
2015 35 37
2020 30 41
2025 25 32
2030 20 34
2035 15 36
2037 13 36
so we have a strange but great graph:
it says that loading time with my 3GH Prescott proc and 1 Gb RAM
is about 45 sec at max., if we see trends
As a bonus, check out this end-map of v026 from 2038:
Brutal...
Attachments
Rhye, check this one out, I started a thread about different AI levels:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3961797
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3961797
much interesting, soma
I have just written a new timeline and I'm converting the scripts to it
I have just written a new timeline and I'm converting the scripts to it
Rhye, can we expect a new version in an hour?
(then I would stay up and have a look at it)
I would like to share some experiences of the last full-game test:
England had 3 cities on main island and also Ireland - thus Liz made it pretty well!
In tech she made it almost par with China!
But then came the trouble in America, where Germany started a modern age
war against England and won over by the bigger army he had...
But all in all, England had glorious days, at one point 5 cities in North-America,
after surviving and winning a long war against the Aztecs
(Germany was ally then with England!).
So:
Let's secure somehow that the West-Europeans:
Spain, France and England start with 3 good cities!
Don't let Rome or other nation into the Iberian penninsula!
and:
Germany is too big. Period.
Greece:
They take on the early barb cities in Babylon area and as being aggressive,
it is likely that they expand on... is it OK?
and:
How about making jungle an obstacle?
They should not be cut down until industrial age or so.
This would help to hinder the big Asian civs!
and finally:
Rhye, to what difficulty level level (for the human player) do you plan to "adjust" the game?
RoC was for Emperor in Civ3...
This King level was very lively with the lots of wars the AI made...
(then I would stay up and have a look at it)
I would like to share some experiences of the last full-game test:
England had 3 cities on main island and also Ireland - thus Liz made it pretty well!
In tech she made it almost par with China!
But then came the trouble in America, where Germany started a modern age
war against England and won over by the bigger army he had...
But all in all, England had glorious days, at one point 5 cities in North-America,
after surviving and winning a long war against the Aztecs
(Germany was ally then with England!).
So:
Let's secure somehow that the West-Europeans:
Spain, France and England start with 3 good cities!
Don't let Rome or other nation into the Iberian penninsula!
and:
Germany is too big. Period.
Greece:
They take on the early barb cities in Babylon area and as being aggressive,
it is likely that they expand on... is it OK?
and:
How about making jungle an obstacle?
They should not be cut down until industrial age or so.
This would help to hinder the big Asian civs!
and finally:
Rhye, to what difficulty level level (for the human player) do you plan to "adjust" the game?
RoC was for Emperor in Civ3...
This King level was very lively with the lots of wars the AI made...
i'm checking if it's all right. i'll post soon
in the meantime, the changelog for 0.29
- England and France regions changed
- postponed France, Germany and Mongolia
- new timeline: 400 turns, ends in 2050AD, very similar to the RoC one. Remember to select normal speed
- barbarian hordes in late ancient age enabled
- a couple of coordinates and handicap adjustments
EDIT: uploading now
in the meantime, the changelog for 0.29
- England and France regions changed
- postponed France, Germany and Mongolia
- new timeline: 400 turns, ends in 2050AD, very similar to the RoC one. Remember to select normal speed
- barbarian hordes in late ancient age enabled
- a couple of coordinates and handicap adjustments
EDIT: uploading now
V. Soma said:
I wanted marsh to be an obstacle
And jungle to be an obstacle to most of the units (like all except scouts and workers, as in RoC)
For both these purposes many changes are needed
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/files/RhyesCatapult029.zip
i forgot the old WBS (006) inside it. Ignore it and use 007
i forgot the old WBS (006) inside it. Ignore it and use 007
Rhye said:
I meant jungle as obstacle in economic sense:
If we do not let jungle to be cut out then China and India cannot have that much food and hammers...
As I see it from the F9 graphs, these two - food and hammers - are what really counts in the end
/well, not a big finding I guess
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