Khift
Prince
Rhye, do you mind if I suggest some unit changes, possibly for the expansion pack?
Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded
- Thread starter Rhye
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Your suggestions are welcome.
Khift
Prince
Awright.
First off, a couple of the Unique Units bother me. Some are too weak, some are too historically inaccurate, some are both.
1. The Keshik
First of all, the Mongols were a plains civilization. They didn't live in the mountains, and in general they avoided the mountains when they conquered. It makes no sense for the Keshik to have the mountain crossing ability.
So I thought about this. It seems to me that this would work better for the Keshik: 4(2).2.2 50 shields, requires Horses, defensive only bombard. This setup does two things: it makes the Keshik much more numerous, creating a truly Mongolian horde, and it weakens the Keshik's ability to keep those cities that they conquer.
Secondly, the Keshiks were horse archers! When I looked through the Unit Library yesterday, I saw a good Horse Archer animation there. I think it was on page five... Either way, I think that animation would work much better than the current one.
2. The F-15
The more I think about it, the less I like the F-15. First of all, it never really dominated the world - although they never fought, IF the F-15 was better than the Russian MIGs, it wasn't by much. Second of all, they only fought in two wars, the Persian Gulf wars, and they didn't make the difference in those wars, they were simply the icing on the cake. And third of all, gameplay wise, they are useless.
And so I thought about the possible replacements. Minutemen didn't cut it either, and everyone has Marines. However, another airplane seemed to stand out: the B-29 Superfortress. In it's time period, it was truly the biggest, baddest bomber, and without it our victory in the Pacific would really be in jeapordy. It made a big difference in the Korean War, too, and is still in use today - it's just that good.
It also makes sense in gameplay. I think most every Civ player you can think of would agree that Bombers are more useful than Fighters. Maybe give them 16 bombardment as opposed to the standard 12. You can also find some good sprites of them in the Unit Library.
3. The Immortals
The more I hear about these folk, the less I like them. It's true, they were spearmen, and it's true, there were 10,000 of them, but the thing is, they existed for approximately ten years, and they consisted of less than 5% of the Persian army, and they got their asses kicked by the Greeks. Hardly a Unique Unit.
I went looking for a replacement, and I found what probably caused the developers to use the Immortals in the first place - the fact that the Persian army was quite nondescript. The only thing I could glean off of Google was that the Persian army was fairly horsemen reliant, although this was off of Warhammer sites, not actual history, and so could be quite inaccurate anyways.
One thing that I did find was that the Persians were very good at organizing their troops, relaying signals, using standards, etc. compared to others in their time period. While interesting, this doesn't have much bearing in the actual game. Mayhaps you could give them a well-dressed Swordsman replacement that has an extra defense point to emulate their quick response, or maybe have a Swordsman replacement that costs less (20 shields preferrably) to show that they could organize and raise a larger army than others at the time. Either way, it's not very definitive, and I can't say I'm comfortable with any of the options.
Next thing: Early Naval Units
I really think that there needs to be more diversity with those early naval units. Having nothing but Galleys for a quarter of the game is just boring. My suggestion is to add a pair of units - the Trireme and the Galleass. The Trireme would be available with Map Making, 30 Shields, 2.1.3, no transport. The Galleass would be available with Gunpowder, 40 shields, 3.2.4, no transport. Of course, this would cause one to need to adjust all of the naval units attack and defense scores, so I went ahead and did this for you:
Curragh (1/1/Coast)
Galley (1/1/Coast)
Trireme (2/1/Coast) No bombard
Dromon (3/2/Coast) Replaces Trireme
Galleass (3/2/Coast) No bombard
Caravel (1/3/Sea)
Frigate (4/3/Ocean)
Privateer (4/2/Ocean)
Galleon (2/3/Ocean)
Man-O-War (6/4/Ocean) Replaces Frigate
Ironclad (8/8/Ocean)
Destroyer (14/10/Ocean)
Cruiser (17/12/Ocean)
Aegis Cruiser (17/13/Ocean)
Battleship (20/15/Ocean)
Final thing: A couple nitpicks.
Could you make Swordsmen upgrade to Berserkers? I realise that you would have to create a new Warrior and Swordsman unit for the Vikings, but it really screws some things up for the Vikings if they're stuck with Swordsmen which they can't upgrade to Men-At-Arms.
You might want to give the War Elephant two extra hitpoints as opposed to one, mainly because your mod devalues hitpoints.
I really agree with the changes you made with the Hussar recently. While it would be great to have a more indepth transition between the Medieval and Industrial Ages, the only way to allow for this would be to shift all of the Industrial and Modern units' stats up some to give you some play room. As of right now, I still think that units like the Crusader and Berserker are too powerful when compared to the early Gunpowder units, and while adding more early gunpowder units would be very nice to do, there simply isn't enough room in the unit stats to let that happen.
One thing you might want to do, though, since you really don't like the distance between Man-At-Arms and Guerilla would be to add a sort of offensive pikeman with Military Tradition. Maybe 4.3.1, 40 shields, considering how often Pikemen were still used as cannon fodder in that era. It would certainly fit in the "poor man's army" chain you describe. Mayhaps you could make it 3.3.1 instead, that might fit better.
First off, a couple of the Unique Units bother me. Some are too weak, some are too historically inaccurate, some are both.
1. The Keshik
First of all, the Mongols were a plains civilization. They didn't live in the mountains, and in general they avoided the mountains when they conquered. It makes no sense for the Keshik to have the mountain crossing ability.
So I thought about this. It seems to me that this would work better for the Keshik: 4(2).2.2 50 shields, requires Horses, defensive only bombard. This setup does two things: it makes the Keshik much more numerous, creating a truly Mongolian horde, and it weakens the Keshik's ability to keep those cities that they conquer.
Secondly, the Keshiks were horse archers! When I looked through the Unit Library yesterday, I saw a good Horse Archer animation there. I think it was on page five... Either way, I think that animation would work much better than the current one.
2. The F-15
The more I think about it, the less I like the F-15. First of all, it never really dominated the world - although they never fought, IF the F-15 was better than the Russian MIGs, it wasn't by much. Second of all, they only fought in two wars, the Persian Gulf wars, and they didn't make the difference in those wars, they were simply the icing on the cake. And third of all, gameplay wise, they are useless.
And so I thought about the possible replacements. Minutemen didn't cut it either, and everyone has Marines. However, another airplane seemed to stand out: the B-29 Superfortress. In it's time period, it was truly the biggest, baddest bomber, and without it our victory in the Pacific would really be in jeapordy. It made a big difference in the Korean War, too, and is still in use today - it's just that good.
It also makes sense in gameplay. I think most every Civ player you can think of would agree that Bombers are more useful than Fighters. Maybe give them 16 bombardment as opposed to the standard 12. You can also find some good sprites of them in the Unit Library.
3. The Immortals
The more I hear about these folk, the less I like them. It's true, they were spearmen, and it's true, there were 10,000 of them, but the thing is, they existed for approximately ten years, and they consisted of less than 5% of the Persian army, and they got their asses kicked by the Greeks. Hardly a Unique Unit.
I went looking for a replacement, and I found what probably caused the developers to use the Immortals in the first place - the fact that the Persian army was quite nondescript. The only thing I could glean off of Google was that the Persian army was fairly horsemen reliant, although this was off of Warhammer sites, not actual history, and so could be quite inaccurate anyways.
One thing that I did find was that the Persians were very good at organizing their troops, relaying signals, using standards, etc. compared to others in their time period. While interesting, this doesn't have much bearing in the actual game. Mayhaps you could give them a well-dressed Swordsman replacement that has an extra defense point to emulate their quick response, or maybe have a Swordsman replacement that costs less (20 shields preferrably) to show that they could organize and raise a larger army than others at the time. Either way, it's not very definitive, and I can't say I'm comfortable with any of the options.
Next thing: Early Naval Units
I really think that there needs to be more diversity with those early naval units. Having nothing but Galleys for a quarter of the game is just boring. My suggestion is to add a pair of units - the Trireme and the Galleass. The Trireme would be available with Map Making, 30 Shields, 2.1.3, no transport. The Galleass would be available with Gunpowder, 40 shields, 3.2.4, no transport. Of course, this would cause one to need to adjust all of the naval units attack and defense scores, so I went ahead and did this for you:
Curragh (1/1/Coast)
Galley (1/1/Coast)
Trireme (2/1/Coast) No bombard
Dromon (3/2/Coast) Replaces Trireme
Galleass (3/2/Coast) No bombard
Caravel (1/3/Sea)
Frigate (4/3/Ocean)
Privateer (4/2/Ocean)
Galleon (2/3/Ocean)
Man-O-War (6/4/Ocean) Replaces Frigate
Ironclad (8/8/Ocean)
Destroyer (14/10/Ocean)
Cruiser (17/12/Ocean)
Aegis Cruiser (17/13/Ocean)
Battleship (20/15/Ocean)
Final thing: A couple nitpicks.
Could you make Swordsmen upgrade to Berserkers? I realise that you would have to create a new Warrior and Swordsman unit for the Vikings, but it really screws some things up for the Vikings if they're stuck with Swordsmen which they can't upgrade to Men-At-Arms.
You might want to give the War Elephant two extra hitpoints as opposed to one, mainly because your mod devalues hitpoints.
I really agree with the changes you made with the Hussar recently. While it would be great to have a more indepth transition between the Medieval and Industrial Ages, the only way to allow for this would be to shift all of the Industrial and Modern units' stats up some to give you some play room. As of right now, I still think that units like the Crusader and Berserker are too powerful when compared to the early Gunpowder units, and while adding more early gunpowder units would be very nice to do, there simply isn't enough room in the unit stats to let that happen.
One thing you might want to do, though, since you really don't like the distance between Man-At-Arms and Guerilla would be to add a sort of offensive pikeman with Military Tradition. Maybe 4.3.1, 40 shields, considering how often Pikemen were still used as cannon fodder in that era. It would certainly fit in the "poor man's army" chain you describe. Mayhaps you could make it 3.3.1 instead, that might fit better.
Bart S.
Sargent
Have you put any screeshots cause i cant find them ,if you have (73 pages!).
Khift, man at arms upgrades to 4/6/1 rifleman now, this is a great fix to the huge gap between man at arms and guerilla.
You make some good suggestions though. I think Rhye is going to introduce a bunch of new units in an expansion pack, maybe some of your ideas can be incorporated.
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the Americans come out in favor of the Cherokee like Ibcoltscrew suggested.
You make some good suggestions though. I think Rhye is going to introduce a bunch of new units in an expansion pack, maybe some of your ideas can be incorporated.
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the Americans come out in favor of the Cherokee like Ibcoltscrew suggested.
here are some screenshots.
they should be in the site, but habee hasn't made up the page
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_conquista.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_england.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_germans.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_europe.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_japan.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_replay.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/minimap1600.jpg
they should be in the site, but habee hasn't made up the page
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_conquista.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_england.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_germans.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_europe.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_japan.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/s_replay.jpg
http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/screenshots/minimap1600.jpg
khift->
lot's of things to say.
Let's begin with what IMO can be in a patch of the main mod:
-the keshik cost could be 50. The ignore mountains cost ability must remain because mountains include plateaus...
-the +2hp for the elephants sounds good
-the berserks must be back into the upgrade chain, you're right
I'm quite sure that these changes will be in the 2.51
lot's of things to say.
Let's begin with what IMO can be in a patch of the main mod:
-the keshik cost could be 50. The ignore mountains cost ability must remain because mountains include plateaus...
-the +2hp for the elephants sounds good
-the berserks must be back into the upgrade chain, you're right
I'm quite sure that these changes will be in the 2.51
Then, the rest:
yes, I'm planning an extra weak/no resources unit for late middle ages. I posted a unit request for a partisan, an early (Napoleonic era) guerrilla. It could be 4/4/1. But that place is good for a late pikeman, too. There are some around, it shouldn't be a problem.
In that case, the problem would be: should the riflemen go back to the main path, or remain in the "guerrillas"?
It's already in my plans. From musketman to rifleman (including cavalry) a +1 (sometimes +2) attack and defense.
The B-29 (or the B-17) are probably more useful. But this must be debated
OK I'll unveil my plans.
I won't need to replace immortals or keshiks, or add a trireme.
The Xpack will include a second UU for each civ.
And the trireme is the greek one.
And the mongols have the horse archer (mangudai). And the persians have the frightening war wagons.
But please, don't ask which are the other UUs. I don't want other mods to take too much inspiration, at least before the Xpack is released.
I don't need suggestion for them, (unless I ask) because I've already decided what they all 31 will be.
The galleass could be in, because the Dutch 2nd UU is the Cog, and it could replace the galleass...
oh, about the cherokees. Well, a good idea for an alternative version, but finding 2 UUs will be very hard.
Khift said:
yes, I'm planning an extra weak/no resources unit for late middle ages. I posted a unit request for a partisan, an early (Napoleonic era) guerrilla. It could be 4/4/1. But that place is good for a late pikeman, too. There are some around, it shouldn't be a problem.
In that case, the problem would be: should the riflemen go back to the main path, or remain in the "guerrillas"?
Khift said:
It's already in my plans. From musketman to rifleman (including cavalry) a +1 (sometimes +2) attack and defense.
Sounds good.Khift said:
The B-29 (or the B-17) are probably more useful. But this must be debated
Khift said:
OK I'll unveil my plans.
I won't need to replace immortals or keshiks, or add a trireme.
The Xpack will include a second UU for each civ.
And the trireme is the greek one.
And the mongols have the horse archer (mangudai). And the persians have the frightening war wagons.But please, don't ask which are the other UUs. I don't want other mods to take too much inspiration, at least before the Xpack is released.
I don't need suggestion for them, (unless I ask) because I've already decided what they all 31 will be.
Khift said:
The galleass could be in, because the Dutch 2nd UU is the Cog, and it could replace the galleass...
oh, about the cherokees. Well, a good idea for an alternative version, but finding 2 UUs will be very hard.
Id love to see another native American civ in the mix instead of the USA, like the Cherokee (though theres obviously several other good tribes like the Apache). About the 2 UU's - I cant actually think of 2 at the moment but how does a Raiding Party sound? - something to reflect the guerilla type warfare the Indian tribes had to resort to to do any damage to the europeans. Perhaps such a Raiding Party could not be very good in combat itself but have say a zone of control and damage buildings (bombard) when attacking towns. Just some ideas, might be a tad silly but Ive thought about it for just 2 minutes
In any case a Native American civ just looks better than having the USA there amonsgt the Aztecs and Iriquois.
but how does a Raiding Party sound? - something to reflect the guerilla type warfare the Indian tribes had to resort to to do any damage to the europeans. Perhaps such a Raiding Party could not be very good in combat itself but have say a zone of control and damage buildings (bombard) when attacking towns. Just some ideas, might be a tad silly but Ive thought about it for just 2 minutes In any case a Native American civ just looks better than having the USA there amonsgt the Aztecs and Iriquois.
Your mod is really impressive and I really like the constant updates and the tweakings based on the suggestion of the members of the forum
Did you plan to include a modern infantry foot unit in the expansion?
As a side note usually I change the rules to allow draft only for TOW Infantry in modern times because I consider the Mech Infantry a vehicle (it's a Bradley after all) and the conscription imho is more suitable for the creation of foot units.
Also the AI tend to use draft too much during a war and the Mech Infantry can be used as an offensive unit, so in many games it tends to use them instead of tanks and modern armor.
That's all, keep up the good work
Did you plan to include a modern infantry foot unit in the expansion?
As a side note usually I change the rules to allow draft only for TOW Infantry in modern times because I consider the Mech Infantry a vehicle (it's a Bradley after all) and the conscription imho is more suitable for the creation of foot units.
Also the AI tend to use draft too much during a war and the Mech Infantry can be used as an offensive unit, so in many games it tends to use them instead of tanks and modern armor.
That's all, keep up the good work
Thanks, I'll consider this change for the mech infantry.
In the expansion there is no modern infantry planned.
Ci vediamo a Livorno-Fiorentina tanto riperdete!
In the expansion there is no modern infantry planned.
Ci vediamo a Livorno-Fiorentina tanto riperdete!
Blasphemous
Graulich
Oh wow Rhye...
All these additions sound awesome... Can't wait to get a chance to play your mod again.
BTW, about the obsolete-wtih-no-upgrade problem, isn't the problem non-existant in regard to units like the elephant and camel which are alone in their line? After all, there's no earlier unit to skip the obsoletion (war elephant can be its own line, no need for upgrade from elephant archer).
*Sits and waits impatiently for news of the Xpack*
All these additions sound awesome... Can't wait to get a chance to play your mod again.
BTW, about the obsolete-wtih-no-upgrade problem, isn't the problem non-existant in regard to units like the elephant and camel which are alone in their line? After all, there's no earlier unit to skip the obsoletion (war elephant can be its own line, no need for upgrade from elephant archer).
*Sits and waits impatiently for news of the Xpack*
Yes the problem doesn't exist for camels (instead for the elephants exists unless you remove the link from the elephant archer to the was elephant), but they would be the only units to become obsolete but not upgradeable. So, as dismounting a camel and mounting an horse sounds realistic, the upgrade is the simplest way.
About the Xpack, I think you will be happy to know that I'm using the revision you did - defensive archers and so all the adaptings. The inconsistences in middle ages seem solved.
About the Xpack, I think you will be happy to know that I'm using the revision you did - defensive archers and so all the adaptings. The inconsistences in middle ages seem solved.
Blasphemous
Graulich
Holy schmagiggle! Do you mind telling me (privately if you must) how exactly you switched around the middle ages for that?
As you know, I got stuck there in my attempt at the rehaul, so I'm very very curious to find out.
About the camels and elephants, I really see no reason for them to be upgradable, adn the game engine limits can be easily removed by giving the three units (elephant archer, war elephant, camel archer) their own one-unit line that gets obsoleted by cavalry. I don't think it is good that people can stock up on these units and then upgrade them to advanced cavalry. These units should be obsolete as they were in reality.
But it really isn't such a major issue. =P
As you know, I got stuck there in my attempt at the rehaul, so I'm very very curious to find out.
About the camels and elephants, I really see no reason for them to be upgradable, adn the game engine limits can be easily removed by giving the three units (elephant archer, war elephant, camel archer) their own one-unit line that gets obsoleted by cavalry. I don't think it is good that people can stock up on these units and then upgrade them to advanced cavalry. These units should be obsolete as they were in reality.
But it really isn't such a major issue. =P
Well, the ancient archer is 1/2/1 and upgrades to the medieval archer. It gets 1/3/1 and is available with feudalism. Then it upgrades to the musketman.
The 2/2/1 spearman upgrades to a 3/3/1 pikeman that requires iron, available with chivalry. (could even be a 4/3/1). The all-round infantry for who has iron.
Instead, the medieval infantry is gone. There are the pikemen in their role. Instead, a cheap (and no iron) infantry (3/2/1, with feudalism) that's the upgrade of the swordsman (3/1/1, iron). That path then upgrades to an early form of guerrilla, then to guerrilla.
Writing this sounds complicated, but I can assure that a drawing may better explain. It's quite balanced now and the early rush is gone.
The 2/2/1 spearman upgrades to a 3/3/1 pikeman that requires iron, available with chivalry. (could even be a 4/3/1). The all-round infantry for who has iron.
Instead, the medieval infantry is gone. There are the pikemen in their role. Instead, a cheap (and no iron) infantry (3/2/1, with feudalism) that's the upgrade of the swordsman (3/1/1, iron). That path then upgrades to an early form of guerrilla, then to guerrilla.
Writing this sounds complicated, but I can assure that a drawing may better explain. It's quite balanced now and the early rush is gone.
I just received a mail - the random map 2.50 crashes when starting the biq. I'll try to find what's the cause
Blasphemous
Graulich
How are you dealing with the costs for ancient to medieval units and for UUs in that era?
Are the UUs gonna finally get proper realistic stats? (Offensive hoplites, expensive but devastating legions, immortals with extra HP rather than lower cost [since their numbers never diminished for long - while they lasted], etc.)
Are the UUs gonna finally get proper realistic stats? (Offensive hoplites, expensive but devastating legions, immortals with extra HP rather than lower cost [since their numbers never diminished for long - while they lasted], etc.)
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