Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded

[Magre]

This is my first time to play the Rhye's Civilization mod and I should say I was very impressed. Rhye, you've done amazing work! I've read through most of the posts here just to be on good terms with the history of the development of this mod and I want to praise you for your diligent attempts to improve the gameplay.

The new graphics are so beautiful and the gameplay itself is more interesting. As a matter of fact I think that this mod must be included in the original civ3 because the original game lacks any true-to-life earth map (for example in my civ3: conquests earth map all the starting locations of the civs are wrong. even if you choose "culturaly linked starting locations" option you might start with the Germans somewhere in China).

If you don't mind I would like to give advice on further improvement.
1. Since the Colossus of Rhodes was constructed from the parts of the siege equipment left by other Greek city-states after an unsuccessful siege of Rhodes island it would be more logical to have a successful defence of any town in order to build the wonder. Because historically the Colossus was built as the result of the victory (apparently they needed the left bronze and iron too, but in case they hadn't won they wouldn't have built anything).

2. The tech process is too slow in the modern age. Only European civs are capable of any efficient advance in knowledge because of the good lands in Europe. But if you don't let them expand in Europe they will be forced to occupy the baren lands of Africa and Asia and as a result won't be capable of any research in the modern age. So you cannot trade any techs with them and have to research everything yourself. At the same time if you have a lot of cities producing science you can sustain a 5-turn tech advance with 30%-40% money on science! all the rest dough goes into your treaury.
So you end up with tons of money (I had about 8000 with +600 every turn, England had 10000, China 6000 by the beginning of the 20th century) and you can't accelerate the scientific process. The money practically looses its value.Here what IMO must be done. To shorten the research period for one turn one has to pay 2000 gp or something like that.

I have some more comments but it is too late now (it's 2 o'clock) I will finih them tomorrow.

Good luck in your good work!!!

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I've discovered a few new double cities:
Lutetia/Paris (named after a Gallic tribe called the Parisii)
Caesaraugusta/Zaragoza (From the Arabic name Saraqustah, derived from the Roman name)
Hispalis/Seville
Trapezus/Trebizond
Herakleia/Heraclea
Brusa/Bursa
Iconium/Konya
Edo/Tokyo (With the Meiji Restoration of 1868, which ended the shogunate, the capital was moved to Edo. The city was renamed Tokyo, meaning “eastern capital.”)

 

[Rhye]

I've discovered a few new double cities:
Lutetia/Paris (named after a Gallic tribe called the Parisii)
Caesaraugusta/Zaragoza (From the Arabic name Saraqustah, derived from the Roman name)
Hispalis/Seville
Trapezus/Trebizond
Herakleia/Heraclea
Brusa/Bursa
Iconium/Konya
Edo/Tokyo (With the Meiji Restoration of 1868, which ended the shogunate, the capital was moved to Edo. The city was renamed Tokyo, meaning “eastern capital.”)

Many thanks. I will update the city lists.
umm...what civs do Tapezus/Trebizond, Iconum/Konya, Herkleia and Brusa belong?

 

[Rhye]

The new graphics are so beautiful and the gameplay itself is more interesting. As a matter of fact I think that this mod must be included in the original civ3 because the original game lacks any true-to-life earth map (for example in my civ3: conquests earth map all the starting locations of the civs are wrong. even if you choose "culturaly linked starting locations" option you might start with the Germans somewhere in China).

Thank you. I'd really like this mod to be included in a "best of the net" CD, if Firaxis would do it, one day.

1. Since the Colossus of Rhodes was constructed from the parts of the siege equipment left by other Greek city-states after an unsuccessful siege of Rhodes island it would be more logical to have a successful defence of any town in order to build the wonder. Because historically the Colossus was built as the result of the victory (apparently they needed the left bronze and iron too, but in case they hadn't won they wouldn't have built anything).

So, what do you suggest as prerequisite for the Colossus?

2. The tech process is too slow in the modern age. Only European civs are capable of any efficient advance in knowledge because of the good lands in Europe. But if you don't let them expand in Europe they will be forced to occupy the baren lands of Africa and Asia and as a result won't be capable of any research in the modern age. So you cannot trade any techs with them and have to research everything yourself. At the same time if you have a lot of cities producing science you can sustain a 5-turn tech advance with 30%-40% money on science! all the rest dough goes into your treaury.
So you end up with tons of money (I had about 8000 with +600 every turn, England had 10000, China 6000 by the beginning of the 20th century) and you can't accelerate the scientific process. The money practically looses its value.Here what IMO must be done. To shorten the research period for one turn one has to pay 2000 gp or something like that.

The balancement is a very difficult matter. Any change could unbalance the mod. I had already been told that Euro civs tend to accumulate thousands of gold. How do I set the 2000 gold fee for shortening the research period?
Would shortening the minimum to 4 make Euro civs gain much less money?
I propose another solution: raising the democracy units upkeep to 3. This would only affect Euro civs. (and I'd like to find a way to make Monarchy more likely to be used, or the Republic less likely to be used).

 

[Rhye]

IL MIGLIOR MOD AL MONDO.... CHI TE LO TITERà FUORI? UNO STUDENTE AMERICANO? UN PIPPAIOLO GIAPPONESE? IL FIGLIOLO DI SID MEYER? NO..... UN LIVORNESE!! (dopo questa posso dire d averle viste proprio tutte!).

si,ho visto che hai in progetto un espansione dai contenuti ancora misteriosi, FACCI SAPE'

ho sia la versione inglese che quella italiana.
ho installato la versione inglese in piu ho aggiunto tutte le cartelle delle unità, terreni ecc della vers italiana (non si sa mai che il mio hard disk prenda troppa libertà!).

abito in Versilia.

COMUNQUE.... voglio degli scenariiiiiiiiii!!!...grazie

This post made me laugh so much...I must translate it:

" THE BEST MOD IN THE WORLD...WHO'S GOING TO MAKE IT?
AN AMERICAN STUDENT? A JAPANESE TWIT? SID MEIER'S SON? NO... A LIVORNESE (after this I can say to have seen any kind of things in my life)"

(Livornese=from Livorno. He instead lives in the Versilia coast, 30km from here)


Che ci vuoi fare, come livornese ho fatto più successo io con questo mod che Ballantini a fare Valentino

Per il momento l'espansione comprende una seconda Unità Unica per ogni civiltà, qualche unità aggiuntiva (e in conseguenza diverse modifiche ai valori delle unità), e una nuova civiltà (che per ora non ho detto alla gente del forum qual'è, ma visto il tuo nick posso dire che ti divertirai a distruggere).
Ogni eventuale scenario è posticipato a dopo l'espansione. Il fatto è che per fare uno scenario storico specifico bisogna conoscere bene tutte le unità e i mezzi dell'epoca, e io mi dovrei documentare (mentre invece su questi forum c'è gente veramente fissata)
Cmq se hai in mente qualcosa e vuoi farlo te, posso darti una mano se non sei pratico.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

Many thanks. I will update the city lists.
umm...what civs do Tapezus/Trebizond, Iconum/Konya, Herkleia and Brusa belong?

Trapezus is Roman, Trebizond is Byzantine
Iconium is Byzantine, Konya is Ottoman
Herakleia is Greek
Brusa is Byzantine

EDIT: I forgot to add another double city
Beijing (China) /Ta-Tu (Mongol)
Beijing should be called Peking. Beijing is Pinyin translation, while the other cities are Wade-Giles translation.

 

[Rhye]

Magre and Dux -> vote please

 

[Magre]

So, what do you suggest as prerequisite for the Colossus?

Prerequisite is iron (as it already is) and one of your towns must successfully repulse an enemy attack.

I have voted already for the first option... cause it is true for me... Great mod!

About governments. I've read through many posts and I know that this problem has been touched upon many many times, but here is my view.

Problems are:

1. A lot of nations use Republic even the nations which are unlikely to use it (for example Babylon and Arabs). When I discovered American Indians all of them (except Incas) had Republic as their government type. Most of the nations trade Republic from somebody else. This is absurd IMHO...

2. It is very easy for a computer player to change formations. For AI it takes only one turn on any level of difficulty and it doesn't matter if AIs civilization is religious or not. At the same time for the human it takes 7-9 turns on the Monarch level.

3. You can jump from Despotism into Democracy. I've conducted an experience: I gave the Incas all the technology up to Democracy, and the next turn when I checked their capitol through investigate city they had Democracy!!! This is ridiculous ...!!!

In true life the change in social formations is the result of long (sometimes it takes centuries) and hard and cruel (usually a lot of people die) processes. Examples are the French Revolution and the Revolution in Soviet Russia. And if you take the present times. It is evident for most of the people that Democracy is more effective, but not all of the nations are so eager to embrace it (take Iraq or Afghanistan). It showes that the problem lies deeper than just in knowing what Democracy or Republic is.

Here what I suggest:
1. The government techs must NOT be traded at all. They must be discovered completely and entirely by civilizations.

2. It should be NOT allowed to skip the major formations. You cannot jump from Despotism straight into Democracy... (there have been attempts in true life but they all were a total failure). Each nation must have Despotism - the next formation is Tribal Council, Ancient Republic - then it can choose between Feudalism, Monarchy - then there must be Imperialism or Early Capitalism - and only then Democracy, Communism and Fascism.
About the Ancient Republic: you can choose it if your nation has no more than 3 cities, because Rome had it only when it was small till 44 B.C. After Ceaser no Emperor cared for what the senate said. Same with Greece: small city-states had Republic, but when Greece turned into Empire it was Monarchy. In Medieval times only Italian city-states like Venice, Florence and Genoa had Republic. When they became bigger they turned into Monarchies. Anciant Republic must give advantages for small nations, but if they get bigger they must be stricken by numerous city riots and corruption making them change for another formation.

3. There should be prerequisites for the change in the government types. I suggest small wonders!
a) Tribal Council is inferior to Ancient Republic and can be taken for free. For the Ancient Republic you have to build: Collegia

b) you can change for free into Feudalism because it is inferrior to Monarchy in some ways. But in order to use Monarchy you have to build: Absolutism. So the players will have to choose whether to take Feudalism which is a bit worse than Monarchy now, or to wait till the wonder is built and loose time. So the Monarchy and Feudalism will be balanced.

c) Early Capitalism can be taken by smaller nations. The prerequisite is Industrialization and at least one Factory built. Imperialism can be taken by the nations which have 5 cities on other continents. They must build the small wonder Metropolis.

d) Democracy can be taken only if you have built the small wonder: Civil Rights (must take a lot of shields to build). Communism and Fascism can be taken for free because they are inferior to Democracy.

Of course you can choose whether to implement these ideas in your mod or not, but this is what we players want from it!

Hopefully, it helps
Good luck, Rhye!

 

[Asclepius]

I like the ideas from Magre but it sounds a bit too much like DyP. Add too many things and the game slows down! The Euro civs should have a tech advantage over the rest of the world but the amount of gold some Civs have is ridiculous, as is the speed with which they trade Techs. Good idea to stop government tech trade though.

Rhye> Small problem in 2.5 I think. Playing a game as the Vikings, just finished researching Military Tradition to build some Cavalry. Traded Iron with Arabia for horses but only Knights appear in the build cue. No Hussar or Cavalry.

Also, are the two saltpeter resources supposed to be so close to Berlin? If the one NW of Berlin was moved one square North, the Netherlands would have access to its own source. (The Netherlands always build a town first in "Denmark")

 

[Magre]

One more thing... I think that Europe must be deprived of oil at all. There is no oil in Europe. Only England and Scandinavia must have one sorce of oil each and it must disappear by the end of the 20th century (because now we know after the scandals with Dutch Shell and BP that British oil sources are almost depleted and the share of brent in the world oil trade is very very low. It is now used just as a standard for price measuring). This is to make the world and Europe dependant on the Middle East oil.

There must be several oil sources in Russia but in the North where you can't build cities so that you have to build a road to them and establish colonies (this is really true, because the Russian oil sources are all located in the north and are very expensive and hard to extract).

There is no rubber in Europe. Only South America must have rubber. Synthetic rubber appeared in the mid 20th century so the rubber must appear in Europe only then.

Can some of the UUs of the Middle Eastern civilizations be given the slavery ability. We know that slavery never existed massively in Northern Europe because the climate is too cold. The slavery was widespread only in southern parts of the world (Egypt, Babylon, southern provinces of the Roman Empire, Greece - which is quite in the south, the southern states of the US and so on, Ottoman empire, Persia). UUs can turn enemy soldiers into workers.

I don't know if it is possible to impliment but can we turn the whole population of a captured city into slaves (possible only for southern nations)? Like when you capture a city you can choose:
1. Great! Install a new Governor
2. No, we don't want it. Raze the city!
3. Turn the scums into slaves!

When you choose the third option the city is automatically razed and you get no more than 3 workers (because normally children and old people were killed, only young and healthy were taken into slavery). The facts from history are well known. The whole Jewish population was turned into slaves by Babylonians and moved to Babylon.

Yeah, you can add Jews. You can put them instead of the Sumerians which are really not needed. I am not a Jew so there is nothing connected to national pride, I just think it will be more correct to include them because they were more important than the Sumerians.

Austrians were many times discussed and I support people who think that they must be removed. Austria is not a part of Germany only because it didn't accept the ideas of Catholicism like all other German Fuerstentum. You can put Hungarians or Western Slavs instead which are more distinctive (though appeard in Europe only in the 10th century if I am not mistaken). They must fill the gap between Russia and Germany. Actually being a Russian myself I should say that the Western Slavs (Poland, Czech) differ from the Eastern Slavs (Russia, Ukraine and Belarus) greatly. The Western Slavs are the part of the Roman heritage. The Eastern Slavs are the part of the Byzance culture.

I am hugry now... Will write more after lunch hehe

Good Luck!

 

[Asclepius]

One more thing... I think that Europe must be deprived of oil at all. There is no oil in Europe. Only England and Scandinavia must have one sorce of oil each and it must disappear by the end of the 20th century (because now we know after the scandals with Dutch Shell and BP that British oil sources are almost depleted and the share of brent in the world oil trade is very very low. It is now used just as a standard for price measuring). This is to make the world and Europe dependant on the Middle East oil.

Funnily enough the media hype about Middle Eastern oil dependancy isn't quite true. Europe and America have enough sources of oil to not require Arabian oil on a continuous basis. The US for example relies on about 15% of its needs from the Middle East. Mexico and Venezuela could easily make up the difference if needed. Japan on the other hand is totally dependent upon Arab oil sources.

The reserve over-estimate by Shell was actually of Nigerian reserves and not Brent Crude. I think we are already in the 21st century and North Sea fields are still pumping

 

[Rhye]

mmmh lots to discuss:

-> what do you think of giving democracy 3 gold/turn as upkeep? It could even be 4 and 3 for Republic. All I need is a savagame of modern times where I see how many gold

2. It is very easy for a computer player to change formations. For AI it takes only one turn on any level of difficulty and it doesn't matter if AIs civilization is religious or not. At the same time for the human it takes 7-9 turns on the Monarch level.

So, as the religious trait is useless for AI, I think should I raise the min turns for the high difficulty levels

1. The government techs must NOT be traded at all. They must be discovered completely and entirely by civilizations.

I once tried: the result was that the progress a little slowed down in the end af Ancient Era, because everybody were researching Republic. In the end everybody had Republic. That's not the solution.

Prerequisite is iron (as it already is) and one of your towns must successfully repulse an enemy attack.

Where do I find "succesfully repulsed an enemy attack" as a flag in the editor?

It should be NOT allowed to skip the major formations. You cannot jump from Despotism straight into Democracy...

Forbidding this isn't possible in the editor

About the Ancient Republic: you can choose it if your nation has no more than 3 cities,

That souns realistic. A good idea. But again, how do I forbid switching to Republic if one has more than 3 cities? The editor has its limits...

2. (there have been attempts in true life but they all were a total failure). Each nation must have Despotism - the next formation is Tribal Council, Ancient Republic - then it can choose between Feudalism, Monarchy - then there must be Imperialism or Early Capitalism - and only then Democracy, Communism and Fascism.

I leave the new governments as possible addition in the Xpack, not now.
When making 2.0, I originally planned the addition of Constitutional Monarchy. But then I decided not to do it because it was becoming too powerful, and because the editor (as far as I know) doesn't allow a free switch Monarchy->Const.Monarchy after the discover or the building of something

3. There should be prerequisites for the change in the government types. I suggest small wonders!

First, I don't want to copy Double your Pleasure. But for curiosity, I went into its bix and tried to find where are the prerequisites. There aren't! Are you sure it can be done?

One more thing... I think that Europe must be deprived of oil at all. There is no oil in Europe. Only England and Scandinavia must have one sorce of oil each and it must disappear by the end of the 20th century (because now we know after the scandals with Dutch Shell and BP that British oil sources are almost depleted and the share of brent in the world oil trade is very very low. It is now used just as a standard for price measuring). This is to make the world and Europe dependant on the Middle East oil.

The is oil in the Northern sea, and as it can't be taken with colonies, I put it where the oil pipelines lead to. And that includes Germany.
If I remove the oil from there, be sure that you'll see a game with European civs fighting with riflemen instead of tanks.

There is no rubber in Europe. Only South America must have rubber. Synthetic rubber appeared in the mid 20th century so the rubber must appear in Europe only then.

In fact I didn't put any rubber in Europe. But I can't add the synthetic rubber, it would have too many collateral effects. The most important is that an odd rubber-synthetic rubber trade would be enstablished. I prefer disabling the requirement of rubber from WWII on.

Can some of the UUs of the Middle Eastern civilizations be given the slavery ability. We know that slavery never existed massively in Northern Europe because the climate is too cold. The slavery was widespread only in southern parts of the world (Egypt, Babylon, southern provinces of the Roman Empire, Greece - which is quite in the south, the southern states of the US and so on, Ottoman empire, Persia). UUs can turn enemy soldiers into workers.

Sounds a good idea, can you be more specific of what units? OK for War Chariot and Bowman, but then I need to know what other civs used to capture slaves in the time when there was their UU.

I don't know if it is possible to impliment but can we turn the whole population of a captured city into slaves (possible only for southern nations)? Like when you capture a city you can choose:
1. Great! Install a new Governor
2. No, we don't want it. Raze the city!
3. Turn the scums into slaves!

I'm not sure, but doesn't razing a city already give free workers?

Yeah, you can add Jews. You can put them instead of the Sumerians which are really not needed. I am not a Jew so there is nothing connected to national pride, I just think it will be more correct to include them because they were more important than the Sumerians.

Don't let me talk

Austrians were many times discussed and I support people who think that they must be removed. Austria is not a part of Germany only because it didn't accept the ideas of Catholicism like all other German Fuerstentum. You can put Hungarians or Western Slavs instead which are more distinctive (though appeard in Europe only in the 10th century if I am not mistaken). They must fill the gap between Russia and Germany.

Perhaps this is my fault, but the max I can do is renaming Austria -> Austria-Hungary.
That's because I dont' want the Austrians to be out: they are too much important for an Italian. At school you hear of Austria since 1600 to 1945. All though the Enlightenment, the Napoleonic wars, the Metternich era, the wars of indipendence ("Risorgimento"), the WWI, the "Anschluss".

Actually being a Russian myself I should say that the Western Slavs (Poland, Czech) differ from the Eastern Slavs (Russia, Ukraine and Belarus) greatly. The Western Slavs are the part of the Roman heritage. The Eastern Slavs are the part of the Byzance culture.

Oh you're Russian Do you know that the city where I live (Livorno) is considered the Stalingrad of Italy? Many people here love Russia and wear shirts with writings in cyrillic alphabet. There is somebody who even celebrates Stalin

 

[Rhye]

Small problem in 2.5 I think. Playing a game as the Vikings, just finished researching Military Tradition to build some Cavalry. Traded Iron with Arabia for horses but only Knights appear in the build cue. No Hussar or Cavalry.

Oh well, they need saltpeter...

Also, are the two saltpeter resources supposed to be so close to Berlin? If the one NW of Berlin was moved one square North, the Netherlands would have access to its own source. (The Netherlands always build a town first in "Denmark")

Yes, there is potash or potash industries there

 

[Rhye]

EDIT: Beijing should be called Peking. Beijing is Pinyin translation, while the other cities are Wade-Giles translation.

....can you explain what's the difference?

 

[Chukchi Husky]

....can you explain what's the difference?

Just the way the names are written using the Roman alphabet.
Some cities have the same name in both translations, like Shanghai and Nanning, others have different names depending on the translation.
The first seven cities in the Chinese city list in Civ 3 (not including Shanghai and Xinjian) are Beijing, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, Chengdu, Hangchow and Tientsin.
In Pinyin, the cities are Beijing, Guangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdau, Chengdu, Hangzhou and Tianjin.
In Wade-Giles, the cities are Peking, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, Ch'eng-tu, Hangchow and Tientsin.
Two cities have Pinyin translation, and the other five have Wade-Giles.

 

[Rhye]

I've found this:
http://www.euroasiasoftware.com/english/chinese/beijingeng.html

 

[Horton]

Raising the upkeep cost for democracy will make it even more useless for human players. As it is, you can easily win at emperor level without ever leaving monarchy. The AI is just as likely to end up in facism as democrarcy so the issue of some AI having heaps of money is rarely a determining factor in who wins the game.

In my latest game as the Byzantines, the Romans and Germans both became juggernauts and were outpacing me badly in tech and money but due to their constant warring, they both wound up in facism and I was able to catch up. IMO, besides communism, the governments are reasonably well balanced and overhauling them won't add much fun to the mod.

The last thing that needs to be done is crippling democracy with greater support costs. If anything, democracy should have its corruption rate lowered and perhaps set to boost the OCN.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

If pinyin is the new system then most of the cities may need changing. I'm creating a new city list with pinyin translations. Some cities may be removed (Anyang is in South Korea, but is included in the China city list) and new ones added (like Wuhan and Chongqing). Should Hong Kong (pinyan Xianggang) be included in the list, because Macao is in the list (Macao's pinyan name is tebie xingzhengqu, which may be too long).

 

[Asclepius]

Originally Posted by Asclepius
Small problem in 2.5 I think. Playing a game as the Vikings, just finished researching Military Tradition to build some Cavalry. Traded Iron with Arabia for horses but only Knights appear in the build cue. No Hussar or Cavalry.


Oh well, they need saltpeter...

What even for Hussar?!! They don't use gunpowder weapons!

Hussar shouldn't require saltpeter IMHO.

 

[Rhye]

What even for Hussar?!! They don't use gunpowder weapons!

Hussar shouldn't require saltpeter IMHO.

The hussar is the Austrian UU since 2.50.
In the xpack there will be another light cavalry (the Lancer), leaving the Hussar and the Grenzer as Austrian UUs