Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

Since this is the civ thread i'm going to answer in coding thread to avoid the one discussion about one topic in two threads. xD

I'll replace the my names and will use your identifiers. ;)
 
Zipzapzup said:
So far so good, i'll push this thread up cuz i still need the exact order in which the civs spawn. :(

The latest version i got is this one:

Start (500 AD):
France
Germany
Papacy
Byzantium
Burgundy
Norse
630 AD: Bulgaria
660 AD: Arabia
700 AD: Cordoba
720 AD: Spain
800 AD: Venice
860 AD: Kiev
900 AD: Hungary
970 AD: Poland
1000 AD: Moscow
10x0 AD: Genoa
1060 AD: England
1100 AD: Portugal
1160 AD: Austria
1300 AD: Ottomans
1500 AD: Sweden
1580 AD: Netherlands

These are the names i'll going to use for coding, not the names which are going to be visible ingame.

If noone disagree i'll use this version. ;)
Click to expand...

That order list looks pretty good to me, but I wonder if we can spawn six
civs all in 500AD. Possible dates which coincide with history could be:

Norse -840

Burgundy -880

The other four could start in 500AD if it's possible to do them together.:)
 
^^

But then it could be a problem, that France would leave no space to expand for Burgundy.

And does the Swedish start date mean that only Norse are in Scandinavia before Sweden?
 
As far as i know its possible, but i can change this if its not working.

Why you would put the starting dates of the norse to 840 and the one of burgundy to 880? I'm not familiar with the history of these two nations so a reason would be nice.

About norse and sweden, yes. Some independents perhaps but no other civ.
 
Then could we make the name "Norse" change to Union of Kalmar when it conquers whole Scandinavia? Or Sweden-Norway if it conquers just them? Or Denmark-Norway if only those are conquered?
 
I'll replace the my names and will use your identifiers.
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks.

The other four could start in 500AD if it's possible to do them together.
Click to expand...
It isn't, actually. Only one civ can spawn per turn.

Byzantium must of course spawn when the game begins. But I'm just wondering if part of the crowding around 500AD is because of a lack of clarity on how we're treating Charlemagne's empire.

If France, or rather Francia spawns the very next turn with a small territory in northern France ("Austrasia" on this map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg), they should then expand fairly rapidly (conquering cities in urbanised Roman France, settling in Germany so we reduce the sheer volume of independent cities we have to spawn) to represent the Frankish Empire under the Carolingian dynasty.

The Germans, or Holy Roman Empire, can then spawn in 840 AD (the death of Louis the Pious and the partition of Charlemagne's empire) in the western part of modern Germany and perhaps northern Italy followed by Burgundy in 880.

The Papal States should be 750 imo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Pepin). This would stop Francia and the HRE extending too far into Italy (I think it was discussed giving a huge relations bonus between the Papacy and Christian civs as a UP so people would hardly ever declare war?) too.
 
Sorry i come with coding in this thread, but its not correct what Úmarth said.

Civs can only spawn at the same turn, when they spawn on gamestart. 500AD is our gamestart, so of coUrse its possible. If it wouldn't work, how do you explain that china, india, egypt and babylonia spawn at the same turn in the original RFC?
 
Zipzapzup said:
Sorry i come with coding in this thread, but its not correct what Úmarth said.

Civs can only spawn at the same turn, when they spawn on gamestart. 500AD is our gamestart, so of coUrse its possible. If it wouldn't work, how do you explain that china, india, egypt and babylonia spawn at the same turn in the original RFC?
Click to expand...

Obviously! Ah yes, sorry about that. In that case there's no reason why Byzantium and Francia shouldn't spawn in 500 AD. Though I still think there's a case to be made for my altered German and Papal starts and jessiecat's altered Norse and Burgundian starts.

Depravo said:
England should spawn c.860.
Click to expand...

We have discussed this fairly extensively, it's not that we think England wasn't unified until 1066. Just that there was a clear political and cultural change in 1066, and this start is much more convenient from a game play perspective.

You can see the full discussion starting round about here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=250261&page=6#110
 
Úmarth;6325686 said:
Obviously! Ah yes, sorry about that. In that case there's no reason why Byzantium and Francia shouldn't spawn in 500 AD. Though I still think there's a case to be made for my altered German and Papal starts and jessiecat's altered Norse and Burgundian starts.



We have discussed this fairly extensively, it's not that we think England wasn't unified until 1066. Just that there was a clear political and cultural change in 1066, and this start is much more convenient from a game play perspective.

You can see the full discussion starting round about here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=250261&page=6#110
Click to expand...

I thought the consensus after the last set of start dates was proposed involved making the Papal states start later, too. I'll go back and check. I'm ok with starting Germany a little later, but I worry that if France and Burgundy don't start at the same time, France will be gutted by subsequent spawns as it chooses to expand eastward into more productive regions, rather than into the more open but less productive west. Burgundy risks a similar fate by having Germany spawn so close to their core area, but if the German spawn is also fairly early and Burgundy has a strong preference for the area south and west of their spawn area, we should be able to circumvent this somewhat.

I think at this point we've got near-consensus that England should spawn in 1060. Arguments can and have been made for starting it earlier, but I like the late start better for balance.
 
Could we not have France spawn as the Frankian Empire (Francia) in 500 AD ( Merovingian -> Caroligian). And let Germany (holy Roman Empire, East-Francia,...,?)spwan in 843 (Verdun treaty) from eastern French cities?
 
Zipzapzup said:
As far as i know its possible, but i can change this if its not working.

Why you would put the starting dates of the norse to 840 and the one of burgundy to 880? I'm not familiar with the history of these two nations so a reason would be nice.

About norse and sweden, yes. Some independents perhaps but no other civ.
Click to expand...

I've probably put the Norse a little too late. A century before would be
more workable, say roughly 750AD, which would allow the earliest Viking
raids on Britain, ie. Lindesfarne 793AD.
As far as Wiki says, the Dukes of Burgundy ruled a fairly unified state from
843 to 1477, though smaller kingdoms like Upper Burgundy and Lower
Burgundy have their roots in the breakup of the Frankish kingdom about
500AD. So you could revise Burgundy to earlier, maybe 800AD? .:)
 
In response to st. lucifer's suggestion, can we resume discussion about
civ starting dates on this thread. As discussed elsewhere, I'm now suggesting
an 820 start for the Norse and a 840 start for Burgundy. These seem to fit
in OK with the list made by zipzapzup so far. Are these acceptable to everybody?:)
 
REDY said:
No Hussites here? Sad, but GL with mod, it looks good.
Click to expand...

A Hussite event in certainly possible (Bohemian cities flips to independent, spawn lots of rebel units) but in terms of time.space.impact they are to low down on the significance ladder to get a playable civ slot.

jessiecat said:
In response to st. lucifer's suggestion, can we resume discussion about
civ starting dates on this thread. As discussed elsewhere, I'm now suggesting
an 820 start for the Norse and a 840 start for Burgundy. These seem to fit
in OK with the list made by zipzapzup so far. Are these acceptable to everybody?:)
Click to expand...

Fine by me.

An important point perhaps which I haven't seen addressed yet is what the turn/year intervals are going to be, as well as the total turns of the game.

I'd suggest 500-550 turns in total (esp as many civs will spawn a lot later)
100 Turns at 4yrs/t (500-900)
200 Turns at 3yrs/t (900-1500)
100 Turns at 2yrs/t (1500-1700)
100/150 Turns at 1yrs/t (1700-1800/1850)

Using the most recent list that will put
Turn 0
France
Germany
Papacy
Byzantium
630 AD: Bulgaria ~ 632AD, turn 33
660 AD: Arabia ~ 640AD, turn 40
700 AD: Cordoba ~ 700 AD, turn 50
720 AD: Spain ~ 720 AD, turn 55
800 AD: Venice ~ 800 AD, turn 75
820 AD: Norse ~ 820 AD, turn 80
840 AD: Burgundy ~ 840 AD, turn 85
860 AD: Kiev ~ 860 AD, turn 90
900 AD: Hungary ~ 900 AD, turn 100
970 AD: Poland ~ 969 AD, turn 123
1000 AD: Moscow ~ 999 AD, turn 133
1020 AD: Genoa ~ 1020 AD, turn 140
1060 AD: England ~ 1065 AD, turn 155
1100 AD: Portugal ~ 1101 AD, turn 167
1160 AD: Austria ~ 1161 AD, turn 187
1300 AD: Ottomans ~ 1399 AD, turn 233
1500 AD: Sweden ~ 1500 AD, turn 300
1580 AD: Netherlands ~ 1580 AD, turn 340

Thus even the late spawning civs still have 250 and 210 turns to play with (or we could shift to 1yr/t earlier like the mid 17th century). It also looks like a roughly equal distribution of start times.
 
Oh thats nice, real nice, Disenfrancised!

Thats exactly what i'm needing for the python files. :lol:

But i think we have to discuss the spawndate of the Ottomans, Burgundy and Norse.
 
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