Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[jessiecat]

I thought we'd do heresies as events (baaaaad events!) - seems to make more sense than having Catharism or Anabaptism as full-blown religions.

The map is semi-stalled at the moment. I'm going to have to sit down with it for several hours to work it out, and I don't have that time just yet - I should start to have it next week. Sorry for the delay.

OK, it's just that Disenfranchised asked for input on England/Wales, which i posted, though he hasn't got back.

BTW just a thought. How about representing the Ummayyad split-up in 750, by a flip of cities from Cairo west to Tunis to independent, like the Fatimids did. The east would remain Abbasid based on Baghdad, and would be forced to recapture the western cities. Bit of a challenge for the human player?

 

[onedreamer]

Theologically I think the most important heresy was Arianism.
About the Civ list, I'm a bit disappointed that the Papal States are in as a playable Civ instead of some neat game mechanic. That could have been a nice spot for some other civ *shrug*

 

[Zipzapzup]

As i said at the moment we have 21 playable nations + 2-4 independent ones + 1 barbarian civ (i think Natives dont make much sense in the middleages of Europe). RFC has a total number of 27 playable civs + 2 independent + 3 barbarian civs. Surely they are not on the map at the same time, but what i want to say RFC has far more civs then we got so far.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Theologically I think the most important heresy was Arianism.
About the Civ list, I'm a bit disappointed that the Papal States are in as a playable Civ instead of some neat game mechanic. That could have been a nice spot for some other civ *shrug*

Arianisms bolt was shot by the 700s, making mostly outside the time frame of this mod.

Regarding Judaism, here's a suggestion: Holy cities have very different effects depending on the religion - the Jewish holy city gives pretty much diddly squat for its owner, and you can't select Judasim as a state religion. Thus you get happiness benefit from its buildings when you spread it around, but little else.

I would recommend having all 7 religion slots filled - if only to make cultural victories more feasible.

@Zipzapzup: Well we probably should get the basic thing working, and can always add more civs (Aragon, Prussia, and an extra Italian, Russian and Muslim civ spring to mind ) later.

 

[st.lucifer]

How about this for Judaism?

As Judaism filled a very important niche role in Medieval cities, specifically that of commerce, I propose a very different system.

Jewish monasteries and missionaries cannot be built by any player. Instead, Judaism spreads automatically to cities of size 10 or more, and any city with a market, grocer, and bank. In those cities, Jewish temples and synagogues can be built: a temple gives culture, -1 happiness (to represent ghettoization, an easily demonized populace, increased inquisitorial activity, and the occasional pogrom), and +10% gold or commerce in the city. A synagogue gives 20% and -2 happiness; same cultural bonus as before. The spread of Judaism to a city grants 1 extra trade route, to represent Jewish trading and banking networks.

Thoughts?

 

[Disenfrancised]

How about this for Judaism?

As Judaism filled a very important niche role in Medieval cities, specifically that of commerce, I propose a very different system.

Jewish monasteries and missionaries cannot be built by any player. Instead, Judaism spreads automatically to cities of size 10 or more, and any city with a market, grocer, and bank. In those cities, Jewish temples and synagogues can be built: a temple gives culture, -1 happiness (to represent ghettoization, an easily demonized populace, increased inquisitorial activity, and the occasional pogrom), and +10% gold or commerce in the city. A synagogue gives 20% and -2 happiness; same cultural bonus as before. The spread of Judaism to a city grants 1 extra trade route, to represent Jewish trading and banking networks.

Thoughts?

I like it, but instead of automatically spreading to size 10 cities how about an event driven model:

Event 1 (common): "Sire, Jewish merchents have asked to establish a community in our nation, what should we say?"
Option 1: "Let them settle", judaism spreads in one of your cities, you can build the three buildings and cities with Judaism have 1 more trade route.
Option 2: "They may set up shops, but insitute a tax and watch on them": juadism spreads in one of your cities, but you can't build any of the buildings or spread it youself, but that city gets +25% gold (no extra trade routes). There is a chance of this event occuring again.
Option 3: "Drive the Christkillers off!", +1 Happiness in every state religion city for a while. This event may reoccur.

Event 2 (uncommon): "Sire, the people grow angry at the jewish presence poisening city X"
Option 1: "Protect the merchents from prosecution": Get a cash reward, a jewish missionary in that city, +3 unhappy in all state religion cities (so obviously do it under free religion eh ).
Option 2: "Use our offices to cool tensions", costs money, +1 unhappy in the city.
Option 3: "Do nothing", +1 unhappy in state religion cities for a while.
Option 4: "Drive this scourge from the city!", +2 Happy in the city, cash bonus, judaism and the buildings removed, -1 happy in all other cities with judaism and diplo negative with free reglion civs.
Option 5: "Forbid this scourge from our empire!", +2 happy in all cities with state religion for a while (1 of which lingers), cash bonus, - 1 trade route in every city, diplo negative with free religion civs, removes all judaism from your empire.

 

[Virdrago]

The seventh religion could be Kharijite Islam. Much of North Africa was of that sect during the early 1000's (especially Morocco).

 

[st.lucifer]

I like it, but instead of automatically spreading to size 10 cities how about an event driven model:

Event 1 (common): "Sire, Jewish merchents have asked to establish a community in our nation, what should we say?"
Option 1: "Let them settle", judaism spreads in one of your cities, you can build the three buildings and cities with Judaism have 1 more trade route.
Option 2: "They may set up shops, but insitute a tax and watch on them": juadism spreads in one of your cities, but you can't build any of the buildings or spread it youself, but that city gets +25% gold (no extra trade routes). There is a chance of this event occuring again.
Option 3: "Drive the Christkillers off!", +1 Happiness in every state religion city for a while. This event may reoccur.

Event 2 (uncommon): "Sire, the people grow angry at the jewish presence poisening city X"
Option 1: "Protect the merchents from prosecution": Get a cash reward, a jewish missionary in that city, +3 unhappy in all state religion cities (so obviously do it under free religion eh ).
Option 2: "Use our offices to cool tensions", costs money, +1 unhappy in the city.
Option 3: "Do nothing", +1 unhappy in state religion cities for a while.
Option 4: "Drive this scourge from the city!", +2 Happy in the city, cash bonus, judaism and the buildings removed, -1 happy in all other cities with judaism and diplo negative with free reglion civs.
Option 5: "Forbid this scourge from our empire!", +2 happy in all cities with state religion for a while (1 of which lingers), cash bonus, - 1 trade route in every city, diplo negative with free religion civs, removes all judaism from your empire.

I like it. Could we require that the city in which the event would take place has a population of 8 or more? I'd rather that the event not be common, as it's pretty powerful. I'd also change option 2 in the first to 15% - 25% is a pretty big reward for something that incurs only a small penalty, where the event is likely to recur in other cities.

 

[sdLeo]

I like Disenfranchised's list too.

I also think that Judaism should bring a commerce building with it (instead of the way around) AND -1/-2 unhappiness...

 

[st.lucifer]

I like Disenfranchised's list too.

I also think that Judaism should bring a commerce building with it (instead of the way around) AND -1/-2 unhappiness...

Like an optional commerce building available only in cities where Judaism has spread? That's a possibility - do you have anything in mind? I think I prefer the idea of having Jewish holy buildings (temple/synagogue) giving a commerce bonus AND negative happiness (that was my original suggestion). Disenfrancised's suggested events would implement the happiness penalty upon the spread of Judaism to a city, also.

 

[Virdrago]

Interesting idea. Maybe the unhappiness penalty could end with free religion, or mitigated somewhat, as they would be now more tolerated.

 

[st.lucifer]

Interesting idea. Maybe the unhappiness penalty could end with free religion, or mitigated somewhat, as they would be now more tolerated.

Yeah. Free religion is going to be a pretty late tech, though - I want religion issues to retain their historical importance, and I want benefits like those proposed for Judaism to have some serious offsets. The game is less fun when one system is appropriate for every civ at every time - rather than have religions be unmitigated blessings, I want to make sure that there are costs to go with the benefits. The benefits that we're proposing for Judaism are substantial, but if our map is initially short on luxury resources (before colonies), the happiness penalty is a serious handicap.

 

[jessiecat]

Yeah. Free religion is going to be a pretty late tech, though - I want religion issues to retain their historical importance, and I want benefits like those proposed for Judaism to have some serious offsets. The game is less fun when one system is appropriate for every civ at every time - rather than have religions be unmitigated blessings, I want to make sure that there are costs to go with the benefits. The benefits that we're proposing for Judaism are substantial, but if our map is initially short on luxury resources (before colonies), the happiness penalty is a serious handicap.

If you're still planning on an 1800 finish, I don't think free religion will need to
come into the game at all. Any real challenge to organised or state religions
only arose post-Enlightenment or post-Napoleonic anyway. Better to leave
Organised Religion or Theocracy as the only options. Your views on Judaism
look interesting though I don't think any civ should adopt it as their own.

 

[onedreamer]

Arianisms bolt was shot by the 700s, making mostly outside the time frame of this mod.

The mod starts in 500 AD, as you know, so how would it be outside the time frame of the mod. At least this is a real heresy, most of the later heresy were just political escamotage to be able to excommunicate some Lord and take their lands.

 

[sdLeo]

Arianism IMO might be interesting, as many of the new arrivals (Germanic tribes - but not the Franks -, Visigoths, Goths) professed the Arian faith and helped - politically - cement the division between the Eastern and the Western of the empire...

they do disappear early though (8th century, as someone mentioned)

 

[Disenfrancised]

The mod starts in 500 AD, as you know, so how would it be outside the time frame of the mod. At least this is a real heresy, most of the later heresy were just political escamotage to be able to excommunicate some Lord and take their lands.

Because by AD 500, most of the population was Nicene (with only the Ruling class being Arianist),

If we look at the main Arianist kingdoms
Visigoths -> converted to catholicism in 580s
Lombards -> king converted to catholicism 603, arianism removed mid 750s
Vandals -> destroyed 530
Burgundians -> Conquered by the Catholic Franks in 530
Ostrogoths -> ended 550s

So all the arianist kingdoms will be gone after at most 20 or so turns into the mod, and all traces of Arianism a few turns after that. Is there really any point using a religon spot (as remember in CIV religions don't go away) to cover that short time period?

 

[sdLeo]

Like an optional commerce building available only in cities where Judaism has spread? That's a possibility - do you have anything in mind? I think I prefer the idea of having Jewish holy buildings (temple/synagogue) giving a commerce bonus AND negative happiness (that was my original suggestion). Disenfrancised's suggested events would implement the happiness penalty upon the spread of Judaism to a city, also.

You're right. I didn't have a specific idea in mind, just thought somehow it should bring extra commerce and unhappiness. Your temple idea is just fine.

 

[Fallansig]

I'd like to get a quick word in, but 500 AD sounds like it was generically flicked out of the sky. The end date, 1800 AD, makes a bit more sense, but it is also unrefined.

Why do I dislike the 500 AD start date? Well it's obvious. So much happens at that date, and so many civilizations vanish and appear within the few years afterwards, as well as even religions, that it's a very poor date to start at. Arianism is one such example.

The 620's would be a better time to start this. That's when Islam was founded--and a decade later, the conquests began--and most of the Germanic tribes that conquered the Roman empire were dying out.

I'd think if you were going to include the initial remnants of the conquests on the Roman Empire, as the 500 AD start would include, then you might as well start in 300AD, with the Roman Empire split and the western part on its last legs, so the conquests can be played out.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Don't you think that since the British isles are bigger, Scotland can be included, or Ireland? I mean, Scotland's talking about becoming independent again at the moment, and Ireland *is* independent. Plus Scotland has not been a part of England for most of history. England could be named the United Kingdom if it had Scotland as a vassal or conqured their territory.

Just to be clear, Scotland isn't part of England. They are equal partners in a union.

I live here too, I know it isn't part of England, I used that term because that's how it's named in Civ at the moment. I can't think of a better way to represent the union in civ than that though.

And you have to be honest, England is very much the "dominant partner".

From the Map thread, thought it was more relevant here.

 

[Zipzapzup]

So far so good, i'll push this thread up cuz i still need the exact order in which the civs spawn.

The latest version i got is this one:

Start (500 AD):
France
Germany
Papacy
Byzantium
Burgundy
Norse
630 AD: Bulgaria
660 AD: Arabia
700 AD: Cordoba
720 AD: Spain
800 AD: Venice
860 AD: Kiev
900 AD: Hungary
970 AD: Poland
1000 AD: Moscow
10x0 AD: Genoa
1060 AD: England
1100 AD: Portugal
1160 AD: Austria
1300 AD: Ottomans
1500 AD: Sweden
1580 AD: Netherlands

These are the names i'll going to use for coding, not the names which are going to be visible ingame.

If noone disagree i'll use this version.