Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[ijnavy]

The civs that were colonial powers should have 1, of their UHV to build a colony, but make it somehow harder. I think that Portugal, Spain, France, England, Genoa, Venice, Moscow, Sweden, and Netherlands should have one of their UHV is to build a certain colony, just make it somehow harder. I Krelin building is a good idea, but the 10% healing does not make sense, unless they heal in cities.

 

[st.lucifer]

The civs that were colonial powers should have 1, of their UHV to build a colony, but make it somehow harder. I think that Portugal, Spain, France, England, Genoa, Venice, Moscow, Sweden, and Netherlands should have one of their UHV is to build a certain colony, just make it somehow harder. I Krelin building is a good idea, but the 10% healing does not make sense, unless they heal in cities.

The kremlin bit is just a proposal. The +10% healing rate would be applicable only to cities with a kremlin built.


I'm not completely opposed to putting in colonial requirements as UHV conditions for some civs, but I want to make sure they aren't our default third UHV for most. Again, as far as I'm concerned these are all up for discussion, and I'm not rejecting anything outright (assuming I have that power) - but I also want to make sure that we're not reinventing the wheel every few months. We had a pretty good set of UHVs for many civs prior to the hiatus, so let me dig that back up and we'll compare new suggestions to the old stand-ins.



I think that we did agree to make the Papal States non-playable.


To address the spread of Islam - I'd propose using the RFC Arabia UP for al-Andalus (giving RFC Europe's Arabia a different power, probably science or trade-related), and setting one of the UHV conditions for al-Andalus as 'spread Islam to all cities in Iberia and North Africa, and 3 in France' or something comparable.


Also worth noting - many of our civs were historically focused on one primary pursuit above all others (ex: Genoa = trade.) Their UHVs should reflect this, as should their UPs/UBs.

 

[ijnavy]

Why are there so many marshes in Poland/Belarus?
Ice in England?
How many colonial projects should there be?
What about corporations?
Why are the papal states no playable?
What about my plagues?
What should I change with my UHV?

 

[Akhera]

I think that Spain and Portugal should have colonies as their UHV condition, because they were major colonial powers during the timeline of this mod. (Portugal wouldn't even be important enough without its colonies ) Maybe even England should have it, but I wouldn't make it for France or anyone else.

About the plagues: I'd like to see them more randomised - both the starting dates and the number of them. I don't like how they are predictable in RFC

 

[ijnavy]

I think that we should have these colonies:
Gold Coast
Slave Coast (National)
Ivory Coast
Mexican Conquests
Incan Conquests
Malabar Coast
Ceylon
Malacca
Cuban Plantations
Brazil
Cape Town
Swahili Coast
Siberian Ostrogs
Far Eastern Ostrogs
Far Eastern Treaty Port (national)
Jamestown Colony
West India Company (National)
East India Company (National)
Hudson bay company

I think that we can Randomize plagues by up to 10 turns. Is it possible?
Corporations: Medici Bank, The Ausberg Banking Families, Hanseatic league, Templars, Hospitallers,Teutonic Knights, still one slot left

What about religions, are there going to be only be only 4?

 

[jessiecat]

The kremlin bit is just a proposal. The +10% healing rate would be applicable only to cities with a kremlin built.


I'm not completely opposed to putting in colonial requirements as UHV conditions for some civs, but I want to make sure they aren't our default third UHV for most. Again, as far as I'm concerned these are all up for discussion, and I'm not rejecting anything outright (assuming I have that power) - but I also want to make sure that we're not reinventing the wheel every few months. We had a pretty good set of UHVs for many civs prior to the hiatus, so let me dig that back up and we'll compare new suggestions to the old stand-ins.



I think that we did agree to make the Papal States non-playable.


To address the spread of Islam - I'd propose using the RFC Arabia UP for al-Andalus (giving RFC Europe's Arabia a different power, probably science or trade-related), and setting one of the UHV conditions for al-Andalus as 'spread Islam to all cities in Iberia and North Africa, and 3 in France' or something comparable.


Also worth noting - many of our civs were historically focused on one primary pursuit above all others (ex: Genoa = trade.) Their UHVs should reflect this, as should their UPs/UBs.

EDIT Double post

 

[jessiecat]

The kremlin bit is just a proposal. The +10% healing rate would be applicable only to cities with a kremlin built.


I'm not completely opposed to putting in colonial requirements as UHV conditions for some civs, but I want to make sure they aren't our default third UHV for most. Again, as far as I'm concerned these are all up for discussion, and I'm not rejecting anything outright (assuming I have that power) - but I also want to make sure that we're not reinventing the wheel every few months. We had a pretty good set of UHVs for many civs prior to the hiatus, so let me dig that back up and we'll compare new suggestions to the old stand-ins.



I think that we did agree to make the Papal States non-playable.


To address the spread of Islam - I'd propose using the RFC Arabia UP for al-Andalus (giving RFC Europe's Arabia a different power, probably science or trade-related), and setting one of the UHV conditions for al-Andalus as 'spread Islam to all cities in Iberia and North Africa, and 3 in France' or something comparable.


Also worth noting - many of our civs were historically focused on one primary pursuit above all others (ex: Genoa = trade.) Their UHVs should reflect this, as should their UPs/UBs.

I basically agree though I'm not sure about Arabia and Al Andalus. Have you seen the basic outlines I've done for each on the wiki? I favour Jihad for the Arabs to reflect their rapid expanse across North Africa historically. For Al Andalus I went for the Power of Medicine to accurately portray the rapid development of science and medicine which happened in Cordoba and made it the largest and most cultivated city in Europe (500,000 people in 950AD, 400,000 books in the Caliph's palace).

BTW Do you want me to do similiar skeleton pages for all the civs on the list so people can add
whatever they like to them?

 

[Disenfrancised]

Why are there so many marshes in Poland/Belarus?
Ice in England?
How many colonial projects should there be?
What about corporations?
Why are the papal states no playable?
What about my plagues?
What should I change with my UHV?

Wiki the Pirpet marshes.
Its a placehold for moorland (cold plains).
My gut feeling would be for 15, but it depends on the tech tree.
They've been decided as banking families, militant orders and the Hanse
Because they shouldn't expand out of Rome, and we don't want to organise UHV for a state so different from the others.
Its a good list, but I'd prefer random generated plagues.
Dunno, be more creative, and check for the old possible UHV list which someone wrote (could have been me even).

As to your proposed colonial wonder list, both the VOC and HEIC are certainly important enough to get on there!

 

[ijnavy]

Wiki the Pirpet marshes.
Its a placehold for moorland (cold plains).
My gut feeling would be for 15, but it depends on the tech tree.
They've been decided as banking families, militant orders and the Hanse
Because they shouldn't expand out of Rome, and we don't want to organise UHV for a state so different from the others.
Its a good list, but I'd prefer random generated plagues.
Dunno, be more creative, and check for the old possible UHV list which someone wrote (could have been me even).

As to your proposed colonial wonder list, both the VOC and HEIC are certainly important enough to get on there!

The pripet marshes are not that large, are they?

 

[st.lucifer]

Why are there so many marshes in Poland/Belarus?
Ice in England?
How many colonial projects should there be?
What about corporations?
Why are the papal states no playable?
What about my plagues?
What should I change with my UHV?

On the map issues, which have been explained many times:

-The marshes in Poland/Belarus are extra-large to fill in space. It's making productive land unproductive to prevent the growth of massive cities where no massive cities exist. They are up for debate, and many will be changed/moved now that the settler maps are in.

-The ice in England is a placeholder for moorland, which we can't add until we're ready to do an alpha version. Terrain and resource mods will be a part of the finished product; we're using placeholders for some things now. This also explains the elephants in Norway and Iceland.

on other stuff:

-There will be 7 corporation-analogues, as that's the number of slots we have. They'll include the five mentioned earlier by Disenfrancised, and two from a list including the Hospitallers, Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Fuggers, and possibly another economic choice or two. My personal picks are the Hospitallers and the Jesuits, with the Jesuits first, but I'm willing to listen to arguments for the others.


After a lot of discussion over whether or not the Papal States should be playable, we decided against it. I encourage you to read back through the existing threads for the discussion; I'm not willing to dig it all up right now.


and it looks like people have already answered these as I was typing, so I'll cut it off here.

 

[ijnavy]

I would firstly like to argue that the Pripet marshes are not that hudge, I edited the map on the map thread, and made them a little smaller. I think that should be kept that way.
Also, the papal states should be playable, why not?

 

[st.lucifer]

I would firstly like to argue that the Pripet marshes are not that hudge, I edited the map on the map thread, and made them a little smaller. I think that should be kept that way.
Also, the papal states should be playable, why not?

I'm not arguing that the Pripet marshes are actually as large as represented on the map, although they were probably historically larger than they are today, as much of the marshland has been reclaimed. I've put extra marshland in much of that area to prevent the growth of extra-large cities that did not historically exist. I've done the same thing with Scandinavia - when playing the former incarnations of the map in BTS civ, the AI which started in Sweden ended up with 4-5 size 20+ cities. Not what we want. If we were to accurately represent the terrain of Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, North Africa, or England, we would be promoting the buildup of massive cities with little competition or threat of invasion. If we tweak things, we lose some geographic accuracy, which pains me, because the map is my baby - but for game balance, I can't think of another way to do it.


As far as the papal states issue, please look for the explanations given earlier in the thread(s) - I'd rather not dig the settled issues back up.

 

[Úmarth]

I'm completely with st.lucifer on this, the basic civ4 terrains are too simplistic if we want cities to develop authentically, which is why the occasional geographical inaccuracy is absolutely necessary for gameplay.

 

[jessiecat]

@ st. lucifer. Sorry to repeat myself and I know you're busy. But have you
looked at the rough outlines I did on the civ list in the wiki? And should I do
one for each civ so people can add to it? Just trying to help.

 

[st.lucifer]

@ st. lucifer. Sorry to repeat myself and I know you're busy. But have you
looked at the rough outlines I did on the civ list in the wiki? And should I do
one for each civ so people can add to it? Just trying to help.

I really appreciate what you're doing with the wiki - it's a good idea, and it makes sense to try and organize discussion over there rather than in these huge threads here (which none of us can really keep straight). I can't access the wiki from work, unfortunately - which is where I am during prime European posting hours - so I'm stuck here. No idea why this site isn't considered games and wikidot is, but there we are.

I'll be posting the next map update sometime tomorrow, so all of this time hasn't totally been wasted.

 

[jessiecat]

I really appreciate what you're doing with the wiki - it's a good idea, and it makes sense to try and organize discussion over there rather than in these huge threads here (which none of us can really keep straight). I can't access the wiki from work, unfortunately - which is where I am during prime European posting hours - so I'm stuck here. No idea why this site isn't considered games and wikidot is, but there we are.

I'll be posting the next map update sometime tomorrow, so all of this time hasn't totally been wasted.

Thanks for the encouragement. I just thought it made more sense developing a placeholder area
for ideas as they develop which is open to editing for everyone. Which is what a wiki is supposed
to be, I guess. I'll concentrate on developing that from now on then.
Just a thought. The excel map is supposed to be city placement only, isn't it? Just generic
for city founding, not civ-specific I hope. Hopefully what I've posted so far from the Balkans
to Morocco is OK for city placement only right?

BTW An update on our conversation about Sarajevo. We don't have to worry about it as it was only founded by the Ottomans in the 15th.C So that's another indy we can scrub altogether thanks to Wikipedia.

 

[onedreamer]

From the coordination thread:
Byzantines 500 AD
1. Make sure that there are 10 Orthodox nations.
2. Build 10 world wonders by 1300.
3. Control Italy, Balkans, and Levant in 1300.

1. Already said: Byzantium wasn't that active in religious conversion nor in imposing Orthodoxy over Catholicism. Also there is no date for this goal ? The wonders goal sounds ok but maybe 10 are too many, or at least it should be control rather than build.

Papal States 752
1. Make sure that the world is 40% Catholic
2. Build the Apostolic Palace, 3 Catholic Churches, 3 Catholic Cathedrals, and 3 Catholic monasteries by 1300.
3. Only religion in Spain, France, and Italy is Catholic in 1700 (Add inquisitor unit).

1. Ok, but I would add one or more milestones for this (eg make sure it's 40% in 1.100, 1400, 1700). But if the inquisitor unit can work in foreign cities, this kind of goals becomes too easy.
2. really awful IMO. This means that the Papal States need to be a huge empire in order to build 3 Cathedrals. I really think the Papal States shouldn't have been playble exactly for this kind of reason.
Anyways, I'd go with this: be elected as the AP Controller for X times in a row (building the AP would be almost a must in order to achieve the goal).
3. ok but read about 1.

France 500
1. Paris most cultural city in 1500.
2. Control Iberia, Italy, and Germany in 1810.
3. Build the Canada and West African projects.

Paris wasn't the most cultural city until after the Renaissance... The rest seems cool IMO.

Portugal 1139
1. No Al-Andalusian cities in Iberian peninsula in 1400.
2. Most reveled map in 1700.
3. Build Brazil project.

1. hmmm... not totally convinced ^^ This should be about Spain, and it actually is....
3. Like someone said, having different civs have diff. colonies as UHV goal makes it easier.

Spain 500?
1. No Al-Andalusian cities in Iberia in 1400.
2. Only religion in Iberia is Catholic in 1400 and no trading with non catholic nations.
3. Build Peru and Argentina projects.

1. Same as Portugal (but I think it should be Spain's and not Portugal's goal).
2. same or too close to Papal States
3. same as other civs >_<

England 1066?
1. No foreign culture in British Islands from 1200 to end of game.
2. Build the US and South Africa projects.
3. Build the Hong Kong and Australian projects.

A bit of a builder UHV but the British Empire was quite expansionist. I would scrap the first which is not very realistic and ask to control France for 100 turns.

Moscow 1147 or 1304
1. Don't loose any city by 1500 to Barbarians (Mongols).
2. Control Constantinople and no foreign culture in Russia in 1700.
3. Build the Kremlin and Siberian project by 1800 AD.

Why control Constantinople ?


About using the existing graphics for the Kremlin as a Russian UB: the existing graphics are not of the Kremlin but of the church.

 

[onedreamer]

I take the point about companies. But not about Islam. Europe was not closed to Islam before the 14th.C.. Arab armies got as far as central France and Italy in the 8th. C.

Already answered to you on this once: a marching army is not a religion. The fact that moors/saracins armies marched in southern France (they arrived to the italian Alps) and occupied Sicily for a time does not mean that Islam, the religion, spread there. In fact it didn't.

And the vastly superior science and learning in Baghdad and Cordoba had so much impact on Europe that it's likely that even the Renaissance wouldn't have happened without it.

It is also likely that we wouldn't have born due a chain of different events... still doesn't mean that Islam the religion should spread in free european countries during the low Middle Age.

 

[onedreamer]

Arabia isn't far off, it's just that by 660AD they'd already conquered Egypt, the Levant and Mesopotamia so I figured it would be better at 630AD, the rise of the Rashidun dynasty.

I was confused about Cordoba because all the maps I'd seen it's included as part of the Ummayad dynasty (Arabia) and didn't become an independent Caliphate until ~1000AD (although it was an autonomous emirate before that, but then so was the rest of the Islamic world). I see what you mean about the Moors/Berbers though. Anyway, I'm sure this has been sorted out before which is why I asked st.lucifer to do it.

Initially we thought to give Arabia a start with 2 settlers one in Arabia and one in Andalucia, but it would create issues with maintenance etc. Reason is that Arabia expanded too fast too far in Civ terms especially in this mod where at the beginning 1 turn is several years.

Burgundy should start from Go and the Papal States some turns before Venice, after the fall of the Exarchate of Italy anyways.

 

[jessiecat]

I'm not suggesting that Islam would spread all over Europe but artificially restricting it to Iberia
alone is not realistic. If they spread their influence to France and Italy in the game, fine. What's the problem? The Ottomans will be expanding through the Balkans later, taking Islam with them. Lots of things will be happening in this mod. It's a game, not a history lesson. Just to remind you. Al Andalus starting in 700AD and Arabia in 630AD are two separate civs not one. And the Papal States are not playable, as agreed months ago. See st. lucifer's recent post to confirm. Perhaps you should check the wiki for agreed civ list as well.