Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Squirrelloid
- Start date
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Your leader list looks good to me. I think it's important to choose leaders who were important in the early years of each civ rather than some of the more famous ones in the 1700's near the end of our mod.
The sources I've used for traits and civics are Civ3 and Civ4 for some and Wiki history articles for others. For example if the leader was important for conquest or expansion they might be expansive, imperialistic or charismatic. If they were builders or encouraged science they might have other traits
which reflect that. I'm sure you see what I'm saying. Civ traits usually reflect what type of leader they were. Finding that out just takes reading some history about them. Just a bit of research I'm afraid.
But don't worry. Everybody will have a opinion whichever trait you choose.
There is always room for discusion. Well done so far.
EDIT: Forget all that. See discussion below. Sorry
st.lucifer
King
traits? this is RFC, not vanilla civ. leaders don't have traits. civs have UPs.
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
An important note on leaders:
If we want to have animated leaderheads, which I really think we do, we have to be very canny in choosing leaders. They're difficult to make (I certainly don't have the modelling skills) so we need to:
a) Use any suitable leaderheads which are already available as mods (and be creative about it).
b) Recycle any Firaxis leaderhead we're not using with a simple rename.
Down the line maybe we can recruit someone to help us make custom leaderheads, but right now we need to be realistic.
So for example, somebody has but down Charlemagne and Phillip II as French leaders, which would not be making use of Louis XIV (I mean we could rename him, but what would be the point?).
We should also think about timescale. With later civs like the Netherlands or Sweden we can get away with one Leader.
Oh btw I added a column called "Group" to the civ table on the wiki. This apparently has something to do with stability and congresses but I'm not sure exactly what. I thought they were pretty straightforward so I went ahead and made up some simple geographical/cultural regions.
If we want to have animated leaderheads, which I really think we do, we have to be very canny in choosing leaders. They're difficult to make (I certainly don't have the modelling skills) so we need to:
a) Use any suitable leaderheads which are already available as mods (and be creative about it).
b) Recycle any Firaxis leaderhead we're not using with a simple rename.
Down the line maybe we can recruit someone to help us make custom leaderheads, but right now we need to be realistic.
So for example, somebody has but down Charlemagne and Phillip II as French leaders, which would not be making use of Louis XIV (I mean we could rename him, but what would be the point?).
We should also think about timescale. With later civs like the Netherlands or Sweden we can get away with one Leader.
Oh btw I added a column called "Group" to the civ table on the wiki. This apparently has something to do with stability and congresses but I'm not sure exactly what. I thought they were pretty straightforward so I went ahead and made up some simple geographical/cultural regions.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I didn't realise that. I thought leaders in BTS still had the same traits as Vanilla and Warlords.
What about favoured civics? If not, I'll just scrub the lot from the civ list. Saves a lot of
pointless research doesn't it?
BTW Hope you didn't mind me filling in tentative start dates. I know you're about to finalise
them anyway. Did we ever resolve the problem of the French and Burgundy spawn dates.
I see we've got the HRE down for a late start rather than an early German start.
EDIT: I just checked. You are quite right. While leaders in BTS do have traits and
favoured civics, Rhye has not included them in RFC so obviously we won't need them either.
I'll edit the wiki.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Úmarth;6780686 said:
About leaders. I agree about leaderhead art. Whatever we can find we can adapt. I agree we also don't need 2 leaders for late civs esp. if traits aren't a factor. I think you can blame me about Louis XIV as I advised ijnavy that it was important to use early leaders who were instrumental in the founding of the civ as he wanted to use people like Catherine and Napoleon who come up really late in our mod. On balance we might be better to choose one key leader than two. That would make it easier to find suitable leaderheads as well.
What do you think?
onedreamer
Dragon
I am not very fond of Leaderheads in Civ4 in general, but at least they're ok when they are made for the correct person (ie by Firaxis), recycling LH or for the most part reskinning them looks really crappy to me. Much better a painting and static image of the real person. But if you can't live without animated LH, go on.
st.lucifer
King
While leaders don't have favorite civics in RFC, individual civs do. Also, there's some set of variables that determines aggressiveness, willingness to trade with others, accept open borders, trade maps, sign defensive pacts, vassalize, etc.
So, not all civs are created equal in this respect, and it is something that we have to think about - it's just not the same as the ordinary civ traits system.
As far as leaderheads go, I've always wondered if the animated ones contribute to the slowdown of the game. I'd rather have a good static one than a poorly reskinned animated one, and if it does make a difference in running speed, I'd advocate for static leaderheads all around.
So, not all civs are created equal in this respect, and it is something that we have to think about - it's just not the same as the ordinary civ traits system.
As far as leaderheads go, I've always wondered if the animated ones contribute to the slowdown of the game. I'd rather have a good static one than a poorly reskinned animated one, and if it does make a difference in running speed, I'd advocate for static leaderheads all around.
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
I'm pretty sure it doesn't have too great an effect. I agree that bad reskins stick out like a sore thumb however it would scarcely be easier to find static leaderheads of an appropriate resolution all in a similar style (I've tried).
st.lucifer
King
Úmarth;6781344 said:
If it doesn't make a difference, and portraits are equally hard to find, I guess we're better off with the animated versions.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I've just been trying to match up civs to animated leaderheads. There are a max. of 12 we can use that are civ. specfic if we use Charlemagne for the German leader, Genghis Khan for the Bulgarian leader and Mehmed II for the Cordoban one. That leaves 9 or 10 to find if we have one for the unplayable Pope. Finding someone who can design these from scratch will be tough.
Any suggestions?
3Miro
Deity
A few notes on Bulgarian history. Bulgarian tribes were united around 630, but were in the territory of modern Ukraine and Georgia. Khan Kubrat but all the tribes under his rile. After Kubrat's death, his son Asparih led part of the tribes to Danube River and then south (680AD). Another one of Kubrat's sons led his people north close to Ural Mountains and found Volga Bulgaria there. That existed until the Mongols conquered it and was dominantly Muslim.
Danube Bulgaria (the one modeled above) was indeed Orthodox Christian (since mid 9th century). Ancient Bulgaria' main contribution was countering the Greek cultural influence in the region, which is consistent with goals 3. The peak of the Bulgarian expansion could be considered either during the reign of Simeon I (territory wise) or Ivan Assen II, who effectively rules the entire peninsula. Only Thessaloníki and Constantinople were not directly under Bulgarian rule, but Ivan Assen II had direct political influence to both via political marriages. UHV 2 could easily include Constantinople (historically, I don't know about balance).
The big downfall of Bulgaria was that it fell before the Ottomans (actually during the Ottoman invasion Bulgaria was divided into at least 3 or 4 parts). Make the other UHV similar to China as well, never loose a city to the Ottomans until 1600AD or something.
UHP is totally unrealistic. Bulgarians were building cities in what was vastly rural area at the time. I have never heard of a Balkan city being razed by Bulgarians. Make the UHP something that would help counter the Byzantine cultural influence (i.e. +50% culture in all cities), that would be more realistic.
What power does the Konnik have?
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
I've already found two unnamed pope leaderheads, so we can just name those. I've also got a Harold Hardrada, Joan of Arc, Henry VIII, Ivan the Terrible, Olav Tryggvason, Princess Theodora, two generic Medieval kingly looking people and a generic Arab leaderhead.
Of course this is all pending getting the authors permission before we do any kind of release.
onedreamer
Dragon
I think there are a coupla reskins around...
Úmarth;6781344 said:
LH had a huge negative impact at the game release. Some PC would crash or slow down a lot. It does have quite an impact for old generation vide cards. Anyways, yes finding LH in the same style is hard.
What about using flags ? This will allow changing several leaders of the civ but not the picture.
ijnavy
Czar
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
- Messages
- 405
I mean names of Leaders for them.
EDIT: Someone already put them in the Wiki.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Yes, that someone is me. I'm a sort of self-appointed unofficial editor of the wiki. So when somebody comes with new info or there's a gap to fill, then I'll do it, if that's OK with everybody. But you can add anything you like. Just put a ?? after it. OK?
BTW Our choice of leader names depends partly on the leaderheads available. For example.
if we already have a good leaderhead for Elizabeth I, then it might be wise to use the name as well.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Although people have said it's OK to have 2 I think we'll only need 1. Esp. where we already have an existing leaderhead, as I said. And also because, unlike Vanilla and BTS, leaders in RFC don't have traits or favoured civics. So maybe we only need 1. I've included 2 or 3 for now so people can choose which one they like best. ps I didn't know Veliki means great but Simeon would be my first choice for Bulgaria. Thanks for your help BTW.
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