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Rhye's Without Stability?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by redazncommieDXP, Jan 8, 2008.

  1. Tweakee

    Tweakee Chieftain

    Joined:
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    An indicator why brief info in-game is still preferable to more lengthy descriptions online.

    I have read the wiki. With no in-game context, that information is not particularly useful in a strategic sense.

    The wiki acts like a vague sense of guidelines for stability, which are only useful up to a point. They don't really help in-game strategy in any significant way, since the feedback in-game is so poor about which factors are currently affecting you.

    I never said -all-. And knowing the major factors that affect combat, health, happiness, income, expenses, diplomatic relationships, etc has not made Civ less fun. In fact, it's knowing those factors that opens the game up strategically and gives you the info you need to form your strategy. With such poor feedback about stability, it's largely pointless to include it in your strategy, beyond the biggest, most obvious factors.

    As I said previously, a brief pop-up summary of each major header, listing roughly how you're doing in each main factor, would be fine. Even just a pop-up (or warning/praise message) showing factors that are way outside the norm (for good or bad) would be a huge improvement. I'm not saying there needs to be an exact readout of every number in the formula. I'm saying that "CITIES = ***" is too vague. It amazes me that anyone thinks that provides enough information to be strategically useful.

    I never had questions - I've beaten most of the UHVs on Monarch, and have figured out enough about Stability to avoid the biggest pitfalls and use it as a weapon against the AI (take their capitol, watch them collapse).

    But when I see a thread like this where is a user is so frustrated by stability that they'd like to remove it, I don't instinctively jump to its defense. Instead, I asked myself, "Why is this person (and many more) frustrated by Stability?" To me, it's because the mod does a very poor job of giving positive/negative feedback to the player.

    Stability often feels like a random event: "Hey, the game randomly decided you're unstable!" Some of the factors are so big that they give very obvious feedback by changing the )|( display almost immediately (like the loss of a capitol). Other factors have very nice feedback from the mod (like instability caused by democracy). But the rest of the factors are so well hidden they become strategically irrelevant.

    The original systems in Civ are designed to provide enough feedback so that the player gets better at dealing with them in-game as they play. In not allowing the player enough information to even include stability in their strategy, the mod fails to make it a part of the game the player can learn and improve at beyond the basic level. Whether that's realistic is meaningless because it's terribly flawed gameplay.

    An ideal example would be the player thinking, "Hmm, if I do this, it will harm my stability, but help my empire in other ways - is that worth the risk?" Instead, in many cases, the situation is more like, "I have no idea how or how much this will affect my stability, so I may as well not even think about it."

    Let me emphasize again since people keep missing it: I am not suggesting that every aspect of the system's formula be laid bare on the screen. I am merely suggesting that the current feedback is insufficient for the standard the rest of the game sets. It is insufficient to allow the player to truly consider the system strategically. It is insufficient in many instances to even feel like a functioning true system of the game and not just a random die roll or bug.
     
  2. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    A useful thing to help the player would be to list the factors contributing to the positives and negatives. E.g. if your cities are going down, knowing that unhappiness or lack of infrastructure is the case may direct you to remedy these things. With foreign relations, a hint like "you have too many unstable neighbors" or "the whole world hates you because you defied a resolution" can help, but you know not to do these things already. :lol:
    With expansion--if you know how many blocks you have occupied outside your historical homeland that would help. Africa and Australia should be made neutral in this regard to expansion (they are meant to be colonized).
    With finances I think it's tough to do anything right now. I've routinely been 1st in GNP, built every possible financial building and have extensive trade routes and still have 1-2 stars.
     
  3. redazncommieDXP

    redazncommieDXP Warlord

    Joined:
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    Wow, I had no idea my request would cause such an uproar. I do have to agree with Tweakee, though- he's made a lot of VERY good points, and he's been logical and fair in his arguments. I think the people attacking him would do well to take a step back and think about what he's suggesting. Why SHOULDN'T there be more ingame documentation? Every other aspect of Civ lets you look at the numbers, why shouldn't stability? I understand that it may not be possible to have perfect documentation of everything, but for example I was shaky in one game as Persia, and I saw that my economy rating was low. I had to decide whether to switch to commonwealth or try to grow my economy, but I had no way of knowing how much growth it would take to improve my stability, what "growth" meant, what it would cost me to switch, or what a switch would gain me!
     
  4. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    Just as you can see how much gold it's going to cost you per turn when you switch civics, so should it be for your stability. (Then it might make things too simple...because sometimes my science takes a hit even if it costs less to maintain my empire)
     
  5. Harrier

    Harrier Deity

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    I am not attacking anyone. Just trying to put forward the reasons for stability.

    I agree that Tweakee has some valid points to make and I agree with some of them.

    The thing to remember though, is that this is a mod produced by just one person - Rhye.

    If he was to try and add all the stability tips into the mod (of which there are a lot). It would take him a long long time. Thus other improvements would suffer, just because of in-game stability documentation. Also remember, all supported languages would have to be included, not just English.

    Therefore Wiki is probably the best place to go, but it needs more info. It is an open forum, so anyone who wants to, can add new information to the stability page.

    As Tweakee mentioned, it is not a strategy guide. Just pointers on how stability functions. I will leave it to other more experienced players to write strategy guides for coping with stability. There must be lots out there. Lets see what they come up with.
     
  6. Harrier

    Harrier Deity

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    Do not worry about it, that is the point of these forums - debate (not uproar). Some posters, as you will find, are more prolific than others. Enjoy. :)
     
  7. Talkie_Toaster

    Talkie_Toaster I toast, therefore I am

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    Someone, I'm not sure if it was me but I supported it, suggested that England's name be changed to Britain (This was pre-dynamic names). Wow, that argument raged for weeks!
     
  8. Virdrago

    Virdrago Wandering

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    I have to admit, the fact that the country is Britain from inception does bother me a bit (why not Great Britain after the 1700's?), but, that's OT.
     
  9. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    I think it's England from the outset, actually. Even though it does include Scotland in its flip area, which wasn't really united with England until the 18th century.
     
  10. Talkie_Toaster

    Talkie_Toaster I toast, therefore I am

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    Oh no, not again! D:
     
  11. rapiduser

    rapiduser Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
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    Hi,

    I always hate the stability problems so i edited the Stability feature for a human player.

    http://rapidshare.com/files/85013702/Stability.py

    replace your File with that File and you will never had Problems with stability.

    I have only added this lines:

    if (gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).isHuman()):
    self.setStability(iPlayer, self.getStability(iPlayer) + 120 )
     
  12. Immortal Ace

    Immortal Ace Prince

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    Freaking nice! I'm sick of collapsing due to my economy. I ran a test with this modified stability file and running my civilization to the ground on purpose. Even though all my categories were plummeting, my overall stability kept fixing itself to "Very Solid." Roffle.
     
  13. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    For those who still don't know, the official reason is that I can't add text without localisation.
     
  14. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    Those damn foreigners ruin everything.
     
  15. aryann

    aryann Warlord

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    Stability is a major new feauture but not at all the soul point of it. I'd too like to be able to disable it to try out a few games.

    I think the game is about loosely following human history, (at least the essenof many major events,) with enough space for variation, some want more variation, some less, so some play 3000BC start, others 600AD, (stability helps stimulate history better,) it means different things to different people and leaving a post like that with nothing more is hardly constructive and against the OP's request to not be flamed.
     
  16. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    Yes, but stability (with civilization birth) is the main way civs are kept to their historical boundaries.
     
  17. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    Is it my imagination or in the most recent patch stability is really out of whack? I'm trying a Babylonian spaceship victory and I have the usual civics (and a whooping 1 star). I've expanded to Persia, Arabia and Asia Minor (but 4 stars for expansion). I have the most gold but 2 stars for economy. Ziggurats did nothing for my stability.

    This situation was so desperate that I turned off stability.:mad:

    It's OK if people just want to play for the UHV by staying in their historical territory, but any other victory that depends on lots of cities and good economy (which usually means 5-8 cities at least) something really needs to be done for fixing the economy stability ratings.
     
  18. Meleagr

    Meleagr Chieftain

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    btw, you can't win UHV with Germany due to stablility. German historical area is a lot smaller than its goals. I managed to control Britain, France, Greece, Rome and Sweden. I have a 5 star economy, 4 stars cities, 4 stars foreign and 3 stars civics (democracy). Noway to Russia since I'm already collapsing (!!) because of my expansion level.

    well, may be i'm supposed to lose Rome, Greece and France to reserve some space for Russia? changing occupied territories is that what you mean for Germany, Rhye?
     
  19. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    I have read a lot of history books, particularly historical atlases and I think I have a better-than-average understanding of where a given civ's historical boundaries lie. But sometimes, these are subjective matters for historians to debate mostly.

    In RFC, there has to be code detailing the area outside of which each civ starts to lose stability points. BUT THERE IS NOWHERE TO FIND THIS INFORMATION.

    This is most frustrating (see also this thread I recently started on this subject: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=270923) for me. I find myself double-guessing Rhye as to whether a location that I think was historically part of a civ is also what he has coded to be a core area for that civ. I don't like the double-guessing at all.

    Just like we players want to know what defines the spawn areas and UHV areas, I would like to know what defines the stable, less stable and unstable areas (or I think there might actually be 4 stability levels for tiles) for each civ?

    Please can we get some sort of feedback? If not a tiled map showing exact levels of stability for each tile, perhaps at least a written description (maybe in the wiki) indicating the high, mediium and low areas for each civ?
     
  20. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    ok I could list all the regions for each civ; but I tell you, you're taking too seriously this aspect. There's no "line of death", which causes your civ to die if you cross it. Plots are counted, but a part of them are left out due to a quite large tolerance. So, it's very gradual. Plus, there's additional penalty for controlling other civ's core areas
     

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