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Ribbentrop-Beck Pact - should Poland ally with III Reich

Discussion in 'World History' started by Domen, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. r16

    r16 not deity

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    expediency can make lots of odd partnerships . Nazis would return to Lech hunting sooner or later but would a Germany without Adolf at the helm would similarly be aggressive ? A great mistake on part of Poland was allowing Adolf get away with the Chezchslovakia -apologies for spelling mistake , only because Germany could have been much better (hence dangerous) later in something like 1950s .

    for any opposition to the notion that the Soviets could have been made to behave , all that was required that they would be in the fight .
     
  2. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    This territory (red borders) was considered as Ukraine in the 17th century, as compared to modern Ukraine (black borders):



    As you can see modern Ukrainian statehood expanded in all directions compared to historical Ukraine.

    But it mostly expanded towards the western direction - mostly at the expense of Poland (the regions of Galicia and Volhynia).

    It also expanded at the expense of Russia and territories historically conquered by Russia (such as Crimea).

    ==================================================

    On the other hand, the part of historical Ukraine that today is part of Moldova (to the north-east of Iasi) is Transdniestria:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

    Transdniestria today (yellow territory - part of historical Ukraine, now part of Moldova which struggles for independence):

     
  3. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    Actually, it's alternate history in which Poland built the best possible fortifications in all eternity.
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Ukraine as a defined territorial entity only came into existence in 1917; how can you talk about "expansion" when there was nothing to expand?
     
  5. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    Yeah, doesn't Ukraine literally mean "border" or "frontier?"
     
  6. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Outskirt.
     
  7. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    Thank you. I was pretty close.
     
  8. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Krain in Slavic languages is the same as March in Germanic languages. (Or close enough)

    Anyway, the map is showing the borders of Ruthenia, a region of the Rzeczpospolita, versus the borders of Modern Ukraine.
     
  9. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    This is not true.

    Ukraine as a defined territorial entity came into existence in 1590 when this name was for the first time used in an act of Parliament.

    From that point on this name was used many times and it denoted a defined territorial entity - for example in a map made by Polish cartographer Tomasz Makowski in 1613 and in a map titled "Delineatio Generalis Camporum Desertorum vulgo Ukraina" made by French cartographer William Beauplan in 1648, as well as in another map of the same cartographer in 1651, in which Beauplan defined Ukraine as territory between the Dnieper River and the Southern Bug River.

    Finally, in 1658 the Treaty of Hadiach proposed to transform the Commonwealth of Both Nations into the Commonwealth of Three Nations consisting of three legal entities, thanks to creation of the Ruthenian Duchy in lands defined as Ukraine (Kiev Voivodeship, Bratslav Voivodeship and Chernihiv Voivodeship).

    So your claim that Ukraine as a defined territorial entity came into existed only in 1917 is far from the truth.

    My map shows the borders of Ukraine as defined in the Treaty of Hadiach in 1658.

    However, the understanding of what area constituted the borders of Ukraine was similar throughout the entire 17th century. Initially - in 1590 - Ukraine encompassed areas of Kiev Voivodeship and Bratslav Voivodeship. In 1635 as the result of the Treaty of Polyanovka (1634) the Czernihiv Voivodeship was created from part of lands ceded to Poland by Russia in 1634 and that Voivodeship was also incorporated to territorial entity defined as Ukraine.

    Certainly none of the lands which belonged to the Kingdom of Poland already before 1569 (since the 14th century) were considered as Ukraine.

    In other words - the regions of Eastern Galicia, Volhynia and Podolia were never considered as parts of Ukraine.

    =============================

    Something about William Beauplan (in English):

    http://mapy.muzeum-polskie.org/articles-about-the-collection/works-by-wilhem-de-beauplan.html

    =============================

    Another 17th century map of Ukraine was that by Vincenzo Maria Coronelli from 1690.

    At that time Ukraine was already politically divided - one part was in Poland, the other part was in Russia. Coronelli called the Polish part of Ukraine "Vkraine ou Pays des Cosaques" and the Russian part "Okraina". In Coronelli's map Ukraine is limited from the south-west either by Southern Bug River (or by Dniester), from the north-west by Horyn River and from the north by Pripyat River. The Dnieper River divided Polish part of Ukraine from Russian part of Ukraine at that time.

    Western Ukraine (within red borders) as defined by Coronelli in 1690 compared to modern Ukraine (black borders):



    Original map of Coronelli from 1690:



    Not it is not.

    It is showing proposed borders of the Ruthenian Duchy, which was to be located within the real borders of Ukraine, a region of Rzeczpospolita. That Ruthenian Duchy - a political entity, not a territorial entity (unlike the region of Ukraine, within which that political entity was supposed to be located) never came into existence, because provisions of the Treaty of Hadiach were annihilated by Russian intervention and Ukraine entered a historical period called "The Ruin":

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruin_(Ukrainian_history)

    In the article above we can see the borders of Ukraine in the 18th century - Right Bank Ukraine map and Left Bank Ukraine map:



    Compared to Right Bank (Western) Ukraine according to Coronelli in 1690:





    Both maps combined show the borders of Ukraine in the 18th century:



    Not much change compared to borders of Ukraine in 1658 (red lines):

     
  10. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    The old division between Polish (Right Bank) and Russian (Left Bank) Ukraine after 1650s has its traces still visible until nowadays:

    However, of these 5 macroregions, only Center (Right Bank) and East-Center (Left Bank) were parts of historical Ukraine:



    People in historically Polish lands (West) and historically Ukrainian lands (Center, East-Center) vote differently than the rest of Ukraine:



    In 2004 presidential elections distribution of votes was the same - historical Poland + historical Ukraine voted for Yushchenko:



    =======================================

    Similar traces of Partitions of Poland still exist in Poland.

    Judging from the map of Polish railways, you can easily draw the borders between Prussian partition and Russian-Austrian partitions:

    To the south and east of red line = Russian partition (in the north) and Austrian partition (in the south):



    The same basing on map of presidential elections in Poland (Russian: Congress Kingdom, Prussian: Duchy of Poznan, Austrian: Galicia):



    And parliamentary elections in Poland (borders of Russian and Austrian partition zones can be seen):

     
  11. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    I wonder where Domen got the impression that quantity of argument can substitute for quality.
     
  12. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    You ask where? From politicians of course.

    But I wonder where you got the impression that no arguments can substitute for some arguments. :)
     
  13. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    No argument is considerably superior to a bad argument.
     
  14. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Traitorfish:

    When talking about Ukraine "as a defined territorial entity since 1917" - were you talking about Western Ukraine or Eastern?

    In this thread:

    http://historum.com/european-history/22023-ukraine-57.html#post1538269?postcount=568

    User Andrey from Ukraine noticed - correctly - the fact that WUPR (Western Ukrainian Republic) wanted to be separate from the rest of Ukraine:

    So treating Ukraine as just one defined territorial entity in 1917 - rather than two separate entities - is wrong anyway.

    As just one defined territorial entity Ukraine exists since 1939 - when the Soviets "united" (occupied) both parts of it.
     
  15. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Someone here was writing about the "liberation" of Vilnius in 1939.

    Another short-lived liberation of Vilnius took place in 1990:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National-Territorial_Region

    http://translate.google.com/transla...ia.org/wiki/Polski_Kraj_Narodowo-Terytorialny

    And before that:

    http://translate.google.com/transla...dniopolska_Socjalistyczna_Republika_Radziecka

    ======================================

    Despite all of post-1945 deportations - including the ethnic cleansing of Poles in Vilnius itself - Poles were still majority in the region in 1990. And they still are the majority in the countryside around Vilnius today (even though the city itself has been thoroughly ethnically cleansed from Poles).

    Polish National-Territorial Region in 1990-1991 (excluding the city of Vilnius itself - as since the 1950s Poles were no longer majority there):



    ======================================

    Here I posted the results of population censuses for the city of Vilnius in period 1897 - 2011, if someone is interested (post #416):

    http://historum.com/european-histor...choslovakia-42.html#post1685987?postcount=416
     

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