RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

[Valkrionn]

Woops, you said Air. I even read Air. Not sure why I switched to Water there.

 

[lemonjelly]

And that even rhymed xD

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Aifon Isle is water, because the Aifons were the people of Danalin, god of Water

Tali is the god of the Hippus and the Austrin and possibly the Lanun. She is playful, and in the story where Mammon falls, she imitates a cloud and annoys him xD

EDIT: 1200th post

Tali is male. Of the 21 deities only Bhall, Ceridwen, Kilmorph, Nantosuelta, and Sirona are female.

 

[Grey Fox]

Did the One decide the genders or did they do it themselves? Or did their personalities transform them into the genders?

They were the first thing the One created right?
If he created them with genders, did he mean for them to procreate?

If its the transformation thing, maybe they didn't get genders until they started creating life themselves?

 

[Randomness]

From what I understand the genders are in personallity only. I don't think the gods are stuck to one from, thus, could asume either gender. They probably have a favorite form that reflects their personallity, but this is only by choice. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Leverkuhn]

This will likely be done... Any suggestions you have, feel free to post. Haven't started it just yet.

Glad to hear that this is on the table. I'll share my attempt at a minimal rework. I think there's a case for a more thoroughgoing reconsideration than the following, but that would clearly take a lot more thought, testing, etc. I as stated, I think the biggest problems are with Arcane, Creative, Organized, Expansive, and Industrious, so I'll consider each in turn.

1. Arcane. One of rife's two joke traits; I don't think anyone will want to dispute that -50% on a building that many arcane players will skip completely for the Catacomb Libralus coupled with a very minor boost to leveling speed of arcane units is terrible. Even if its boost applied only to arcane units, Charismatic would still be much better. Along those lines, I would like to change the potency effect to instead lower the xp needed for promotions. This would have the important consequence of insuring that arcane players still benefit from xp gained through normal combat (especially nice for Amurites). I would also consider giving the mages another free promotion, as spiritual does. Mobility I or Spell Extension I might be reasonable choices.

The Arcane Trait still needs a little more flavor. My suggestion to to allow Arcane leaders to build Academies without a GS, much like Organized leaders can with Command Posts. The obvious prerequisite tech options are Arcane Lore or Strength of Will, but my preference is Guilds: its on an underused part of the tech tree and ensures that there's more to Arcane leaders then beelining up the mage tree. The cost should be pretty high to prevent this from being spammed in all cities too easily. It may be desirable to give Academies some Arcane-themed effect if this is adopted. (You could even have Academies grant potency to all Arcane units built in the city; this would make GS more desirable and flavorful for non-Arcane leaders, while Arcane leaders can't complain since they don't have to use a GS).



2. Expansive. With RifE's additions of a new healer specialist and , extra + resources, and attached to other specialsts, Erebus' citizens have never been healthier. Couple the consequent superfluousness of Expansive's +3 along with the fact the the settler bonus doesn't consider food used for production, and you've got a seriously up trait. I propose moving Creative's +2/city to Expansive (maybe move it down to +1), since its only real function is to pop borders quickly. I would also give +20% (random number; can be changed as balance demands) stored on city growth. The present bonuses can stay.



3. Creative. This is a tough one. There's no denying it's pathetic in its current form (heck, you don't even get half off Theatres), but sensible tweaks are hard to come by. What I'm using right now is +50% /city, with Theatre and Masquerade Theatre added to the discount list (the flat +2 is with Expansive, as stated above), but this isn't very satisfying. What I'd like is for cultural victory to be removed and for culture instead to provide + and economic bonuses that increase with a city's cultural level. Then Creative can have some kind of boost to those bonuses. But this is obviously a sweeping change and may not even be codable. Another possibility is to give Creative leaders some kind of bonus with the new guild system Valk is working on.



4. Organized. In practice it's just a (much) weaker version of financial. Its useless early game, and the savings continue to pale next to financial's boost even very late in the game. The Command Posts would be better if GC's weren't so plentiful. I suggest removing the -50% civic upkeep bonus (but not the command posts), and re-theming the trait to focus on training. Double production of Hunter's Hall, Training Yard, Jousting Tilt, Archery Range (and Siege Workshop? Maybe of the Master's buildings too?!). Training rates and limits (if codable) improved. GCs level up more quickly (and remove them from Charismatic). I get the feeling the training aspect of the game could use some polishing/buffing in general, and this remake fits this project. Maybe work equipment mechanics in somehow: grant reduced prices, or give new units a chance of stating with a random piece of equipment. Possibly rename the trait Martial or Disciplined. As a finishing touch, reduce unit supply costs somehow. The beauty of this is that it turns what would have been a useless trait for the AI into a rather solid one.



5. Industrious. I grant that this trait isn't as obviously broken as the above four, but it still doesn't work for me. With a few exceptions (nerf Guild of Hammers already!) wonders don't radically alter the course of the game, and that's as it should be. The fact that it doesn't affect national wonders and rituals suggests that this trait is supposed to revolve around winning wonder races, which I don't find appealing. I think want to change to a general building production boost ala Artisans Workshop: +10% , -10% unit production. This number may be too low, as indeed might the Artisan Workshop's: even ignoring the time value of production entirely, you have to invest 1,333 in buildings before it breaks even. I would also consider changing the worker boost to something more noticeable. The trait still seems too bland to me, more ideas are needed.



6. Other ideas. I think Charismatic should focus more on + and a little less on leveling units, though I don't have specific ideas. Ideally, Financial would be more about and less about , but given the usually prohibitive costs of rushing/upgrading units they amount to basically the same thing (read: ).

 

[Sarisin]

I put this here instead of bugs because it is probably how the game works, but I don't understand it.

As Goodreau/Grigori I am at war with Sidar/Koun.

I raze a city that was building The Baron. I see that during my turn the build in another Sidar city changes to The Baron.

As luck would have it, I have a small stack near this city too and raze it. The build of the Baron moves to yet another Sidar city.

My question is as this is a turn-based game, how can the AI make changes like this during my turn? Wouldn't it have to wait until my turn is finished to change its build queue?

Also, I am noticing some strange things in just about every game. I am playing at Monarch difficulty.

In this game Sidar/Koun declared war on me. I figured no problem as I had some strong Hunter Adventurers and the Three Stooges with a lot of XP.

I take them over to Sidar territory only to discover they have Strength 10 Champions WITH MITHRIL WEAPONS!

It was only Turn 226 in a Normal Speed game. Also, as mentioned, they were building the Baron which requires another advanced tech.

Yet, when the popup that shows tech ranking appears, I am listed as number one in tech.

It just seems that every game I run into some AI that is too advanced compared to the number of turns that have been played. In another game I ran into the Mechanos with Hand Gunners before Turn 200.

Maybe they are forgetting all other techs and beelining, but still some of these seem way too early.

 

[Valkrionn]

Glad to hear that this is on the table. I'll share my attempt at a minimal rework. I think there's a case for a more thoroughgoing reconsideration than the following, but that would clearly take a lot more thought, testing, etc. I as stated, I think the biggest problems are with Arcane, Creative, Organized, Expansive, and Industrious, so I'll consider each in turn.

I haven't actually done anything on it yet, but I do want to, so your input is very welcome.

1. Arcane. One of rife's two joke traits; I don't think anyone will want to dispute that -50% on a building that many arcane players will skip completely for the Catacomb Libralus coupled with a very minor boost to leveling speed of arcane units is terrible. Even if its boost applied only to arcane units, Charismatic would still be much better. Along those lines, I would like to change the potency effect to instead lower the xp needed for promotions. This would have the important consequence of insuring that arcane players still benefit from xp gained through normal combat (especially nice for Amurites). I would also consider giving the mages another free promotion, as spiritual does. Mobility I or Spell Extension I might be reasonable choices.

The Arcane Trait still needs a little more flavor. My suggestion to to allow Arcane leaders to build Academies without a GS, much like Organized leaders can with Command Posts. The obvious prerequisite tech options are Arcane Lore or Strength of Will, but my preference is Guilds: its on an underused part of the tech tree and ensures that there's more to Arcane leaders then beelining up the mage tree. The cost should be pretty high to prevent this from being spammed in all cities too easily. It may be desirable to give Academies some Arcane-themed effect if this is adopted. (You could even have Academies grant potency to all Arcane units built in the city; this would make GS more desirable and flavorful for non-Arcane leaders, while Arcane leaders can't complain since they don't have to use a GS).

Hmm... My idea is a little bit different. Introduce a tier 1 arcane unit, unable to build mana nodes (inherently limited to just palace/UF manas this way). Same strength as a scout, no tech requirement, obsoletes at KotE, requires the Arcane trait. Arcane leaders start with one for free.

2. Expansive. With RifE's additions of a new healer specialist and , extra + resources, and attached to other specialsts, Erebus' citizens have never been healthier. Couple the consequent superfluousness of Expansive's +3 along with the fact the the settler bonus doesn't consider food used for production, and you've got a seriously up trait. I propose moving Creative's +2/city to Expansive (maybe move it down to +1), since its only real function is to pop borders quickly. I would also give +20% (random number; can be changed as balance demands) stored on city growth. The present bonuses can stay.

Health will be more important after I finish what I have planned; That's all I'll say here.

3. Creative. This is a tough one. There's no denying it's pathetic in its current form (heck, you don't even get half off Theatres), but sensible tweaks are hard to come by. What I'm using right now is +50% /city, with Theatre and Masquerade Theatre added to the discount list (the flat +2 is with Expansive, as stated above), but this isn't very satisfying. What I'd like is for cultural victory to be removed and for culture instead to provide + and economic bonuses that increase with a city's cultural level. Then Creative can have some kind of boost to those bonuses. But this is obviously a sweeping change and may not even be codable. Another possibility is to give Creative leaders some kind of bonus with the new guild system Valk is working on.

I'm really not sure what to do with Creative, but I could possibly do something with guilds, yes.

4. Organized. In practice it's just a (much) weaker version of financial. Its useless early game, and the savings continue to pale next to financial's boost even very late in the game. The Command Posts would be better if GC's weren't so plentiful. I suggest removing the -50% civic upkeep bonus (but not the command posts), and re-theming the trait to focus on training. Double production of Hunter's Hall, Training Yard, Jousting Tilt, Archery Range (and Siege Workshop? Maybe of the Master's buildings too?!). Training rates and limits (if codable) improved. GCs level up more quickly (and remove them from Charismatic). I get the feeling the training aspect of the game could use some polishing/buffing in general, and this remake fits this project. Maybe work equipment mechanics in somehow: grant reduced prices, or give new units a chance of stating with a random piece of equipment. Possibly rename the trait Martial or Disciplined. As a finishing touch, reduce unit supply costs somehow. The beauty of this is that it turns what would have been a useless trait for the AI into a rather solid one.

I like this one.

5. Industrious. I grant that this trait isn't as obviously broken as the above four, but it still doesn't work for me. With a few exceptions (nerf Guild of Hammers already!) wonders don't radically alter the course of the game, and that's as it should be. The fact that it doesn't affect national wonders and rituals suggests that this trait is supposed to revolve around winning wonder races, which I don't find appealing. I think want to change to a general building production boost ala Artisans Workshop: +10% , -10% unit production. This number may be too low, as indeed might the Artisan Workshop's: even ignoring the time value of production entirely, you have to invest 1,333 in buildings before it breaks even. I would also consider changing the worker boost to something more noticeable. The trait still seems too bland to me, more ideas are needed.

Hmm... Will see if that's possible.

6. Other ideas. I think Charismatic should focus more on + and a little less on leveling units, though I don't have specific ideas. Ideally, Financial would be more about and less about , but given the usually prohibitive costs of rushing/upgrading units they amount to basically the same thing (read: ).

Feel free to post any other ideas.

I put this here instead of bugs because it is probably how the game works, but I don't understand it.

As Goodreau/Grigori I am at war with Sidar/Koun.

I raze a city that was building The Baron. I see that during my turn the build in another Sidar city changes to The Baron.

As luck would have it, I have a small stack near this city too and raze it. The build of the Baron moves to yet another Sidar city.

My question is as this is a turn-based game, how can the AI make changes like this during my turn? Wouldn't it have to wait until my turn is finished to change its build queue?

Also, I am noticing some strange things in just about every game. I am playing at Monarch difficulty.

In this game Sidar/Koun declared war on me. I figured no problem as I had some strong Hunter Adventurers and the Three Stooges with a lot of XP.

I take them over to Sidar territory only to discover they have Strength 10 Champions WITH MITHRIL WEAPONS!

It was only Turn 226 in a Normal Speed game. Also, as mentioned, they were building the Baron which requires another advanced tech.

Yet, when the popup that shows tech ranking appears, I am listed as number one in tech.

It just seems that every game I run into some AI that is too advanced compared to the number of turns that have been played. In another game I ran into the Mechanos with Hand Gunners before Turn 200.

Maybe they are forgetting all other techs and beelining, but still some of these seem way too early.

I'm not sure when the AI updates it's production; I know the hammers are not applied until the next turn, however. It's possible that losing a city forces the AI to update it's build orders.

As for the techs... The AI actually has quite a bit of code telling it what to tech next (slightly buggy atm, but massively cleaned/optimized by Grey Fox; Make sure to thank him next version. ). Apparently it told them to get Mithril, though obviously they got some decent economy techs on the way or they couldn't have managed it that fast, while you didn't specialize in your techs. Left you in the lead, but them in a higher tier.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah I've cleaned it up, optimized it and hopefully squashed all bugs.
But I haven't really changed any of the weights and such, which we might want to do.
Maybe even rewrite it to not be as hard coded and this time change it in the SDK (but we can start in python till we have much of the result we want)

 

[Sarisin]

I'm not sure when the AI updates it's production; I know the hammers are not applied until the next turn, however. It's possible that losing a city forces the AI to update it's build orders.

As for the techs... The AI actually has quite a bit of code telling it what to tech next (slightly buggy atm, but massively cleaned/optimized by Grey Fox; Make sure to thank him next version. ). Apparently it told them to get Mithril, though obviously they got some decent economy techs on the way or they couldn't have managed it that fast, while you didn't specialize in your techs. Left you in the lead, but them in a higher tier.

I dunno, it really takes away the turn-based idea of a game if the AI can update any time it wants. I would think it should have to wait until you've hit that ENTER key ending your turn.

I thought it might be because they got lucky with goody huts as I often did at the lower difficulties. However, at Monarch and above I don't think you can pop a tech from a goody hut. You just get a few beakers towards one.

When you look at the tree and see what is necessary to get to Mithril Weapons and Feral Bond, it just doesn't seem to be possible to have both these advanced techs this early.

Also, after playing on, I noticed the next Sidar city I came to was building the Ride of the Nine Kings!

Again, I thought it just might be one of those games, but seeing it in a number of games, and playing only at Monarch, I have to wonder is there isn't something broken here.

I wonder if anyone else has seen this - AI civs way out in front of everyone else in technology very early in the game?

 

[Korias]

Would it be possible to enable The Black Wind to command units? It'd be interesting to have an actual pirate fleet under a single banner.

 

[Palius84]

For a Unique Improvement, you could have a mountain castle of a sort. Use it as a defense, and give off Air Mana.

 

[Palius84]

I like Korias's suggestion... as it is there are no real fleet battles. I suggest if you do that though, you actually make it possible to make a fleet commander. Whether it is a new promotion in order to have it command a ship. There are quite a few promotions available if you do that. Such as giving all units on the ship a bonus to attack from sea. All ships in command are given movement and such.

 

[Palius84]

I am not sure the mechanics of the game exactly, but is there a way to use multiple units in conjunction with each other. Such as when attacking with a Swordsman with an archer in a stack, you can get an automatic barrage from arrows if they have not attacked. Such things as that. Or have an Shieldmen automatically give bonuses to defense when in the stack. Maybe even have to make them into units for them to work in conjunction.

 

[Korias]

@Palius84:

The Guardians of Pristin Pass are closest to what you're saying... not sure if adding Air mana to the fort is a good idea or not.

And you can definitely have a barrage before your other units get in first, but you have to select the Archery unit and use a Ranged Attack before you use Melee units. Guardsman units defend the stack, but having a Shieldbearer unit may be interesting as a sort of mundane Great Commander that helps defend the stack... no attack, but high defense.

 

[Palius84]

I technically meant a different whole Unique Improvement, not just adding to what is already there.

For the units, I meant a specific unit in a group that gave bonuses when grouped together. Not just a group for moving.

Think more of an adventuring party. One who helps the others in the group with specific skills. They help their group that they have been assigned to.
Maybe even have a random effect to it. As in the longer the group is together the more likely these affects can happen.

If anyone has played Ogrebattle 64, for nintendo 64 you might have more of an understanding of what I mean.

 

[Aline]

Regarding the creative trait i had some ideas.

-All buildings that allow you to turn a citizen into a artist(its bard in ffh i think) provide free artists instead.

-Barbarian units that enter your territory have a chance of joining you.

-Barbarian cities that share borders with you have a chance of joining you.

-Units that attack a city of yours have a chance of joining you instead, chance increases with the culture level of the city.

-Foreign cities that are connected to one of your cities via trade routes get unhappiness and loose culture, your city gains happiness and culture.

-Unhappiness in all foreign cities of non creative leaders, based on your overall culture.

-Higher chances, that cites flip via culture.


The main idea is all ways the same, the empire of a creative leader offers more options for artists and the like, creating magnificent sparkling cites that everyone wants to live in.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

Are you still planning on adding the coal resource and creating steel weapons as a new tier? I've loved this idea ever since I first read it. Moving Mithril Working up the tech chain and making mithril super rare and even more powerful is something I've always thought would be great. I think Mithril Working should be a side tech and should require both the tech for steal weapons and a high arcane tech like Arcane Lore, representing the required knowledge of this ancient mystical metal.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yes, I am, and that's pretty much exactly what I want to do with Mithril.

 

[Aline]

Just a minor thing, but could the agnostic leaders get some BGM of their own or maybe use some allredy existing music, but that "bush drum" music all the time is a real pain.