[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Krajzen]

New features sound very nice but my mood is very bleak: I don't believe firaxis is willing or competent enoigh to improve AI and this is my primary concern with the game.

Honestly I'd be way more excited if they announced "after numerous discussion and your feedback, we announce grand AI Improvement Patch released <insert date>"

 

[Battlehelm043]

I love how gold has been brought back by the looks of the screenshots. I'm very interested to see how they handle the eras and spacing of the units added into the mix. Most importantly I've seen and heard some people saying the world congress won't be in this expansion. I hope that is wrong, unless they take the time to really flesh the interactions between civs out first. I can wait for a world congress in a second expansion so long as the diplomacy continues to be fleshed out.

 

[Amrunril]

I'm particularly intrigued by this statement from the announcement:

While a Golden Age provides one Dedication bonus (a powerful Golden Age effect), being in a Heroic Age lets the player earn three Dedication bonuses (making it sort of a “triple” Golden Age).

This suggests that, unlike in past editions, where golden ages were fixed bonuses, Civ VI will allow you to chose from multiple types of bonus. Instead of a generic golden age, you might start a scientific golden age or a colonial golden age. Such a change would be reminiscent of what Civ V did to religion, omitting a mechanic from the vanilla release to bring it back in a deeper, more customizable form.

 

[Zaarin]

I love how gold has been brought back by the looks of the screenshots. I'm very interested to see how they handle the eras and spacing of the units added into the mix. Most importantly I've seen and heard some people saying the world congress won't be in this expansion. I hope that is wrong, unless they take the time to really flesh the interactions between civs out first. I can wait for a world congress in a second expansion so long as the diplomacy continues to be fleshed out.

Since it's in a forest, it's probably actually amber; gold doesn't usually come from trees.

 

[Ferocitus]

New features sound very nice but my mood is very bleak: I don't believe firaxis is willing or competent enoigh to improve AI and this is my primary concern with the game.

Honestly I'd be way more excited if they announced "after numerous discussion and your feedback, we announce grand AI Improvement Patch released <insert date>"

I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, insofar as (a) they have long
term plans which we aren't privy to and (b) they know what they are doing.

It is very clear that the latest proposals have been worked on for several
months, perhaps even from well before Civ6 was first released. To get the AI
"perfect" for the game earlier would have been a very poor use of time and
resources, as would have getting the UI to suit those who dislike it in its
present form, or to release modding toolsets for an incomplete version.

Or, in the words of Donald Knuth, the doyen of computer science:
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil".

 

[CivLuvah]

^^ Thanks Jacques. However at 50 I can figure out how I want to spend my own hard earned income. Even if the expansion does not live up to the community's expectations the fact i would get 8 more civs is enough to justify (for me) the price.

Same here. Although I would be a bit cautious and wait for the release to buy the expansion.

That also does mean that Colombia, Mexico and Argentina are probably not likely, and that the chances for a Native North-American civ or Maya's are decreasing, although i even have my doubts if Inca's will make it in. I actually had hoped Machu Pichu would be a wonder included in the game together with an Inca civ, and now that we already know all wonders except the muslim wonder (and even if it is a wonder?), it seems (a bit) less likely.

Too me, this feels honestly extremely disappointing, especially since we already have Australia in this game. This is just too early, especially since only eight civilizations are included in the game, and we lack a lot of civilizations, and the dark horse civ wouldn't be that interesting, and i'm going to hear even more complaint about EU-(colonial) overrepresentation.

I can also be wrong, and we can have a Canadian centered native American civ, but it seems unlikely, especially because of that Chateau. I know it doesn't have to be a prerequisite for civs to be included if national (and world) wonders from that civilization / region is included, but this strongly suggests that Canada will be featured in the expansion.

It's just the reveal, so I still have faith that we will have non-European civs

Plus, the historic moments grant era points towards a Golden Age to reward the player for doing cool stuff. And the timeline is just a cool visual to show the player what they have accomplished. So it is just a way to add immersion to what the player does. Basically, the player is still writing their own history but the game will now acknowledge it more.

I had that as a second thought when I re-read the feature. In a way they are like in-game Steam Achievements

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Since it's in a forest, it's probably actually amber; gold doesn't usually come from trees.

We have seen other minerals under forests in the base game.

 

[clapyourhands]

I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, insofar as (a) they have long
term plans which we aren't privy to and (b) they know what they are doing.

It is very clear that the latest proposals have been worked on for several
months, perhaps even from well before Civ6 was first released. To get the AI
"perfect" for the game earlier would have been a very poor use of time and
resources, as would have getting the UI to suit those who dislike it in its
present form, or to release modding toolsets for an incomplete version.

Or, in the words of Donald Knuth, the doyen of computer science:
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil".

Agreed, I'm not worried about poor AI and other issues never being fixed, and as pessimistic as some people are about it I don't think many people believe they will be issues forever. It's moreso that people are cynical about such issues being fixed within the near future or even the next year or so, as I can forsee the expansion being somewhat buggy, with gamebreaking bugs being fixed a few weeks after release, and annoying but not-gamebreaking ones being left until the next major patch. Stuff like the AI and UI I could see not being majorly touched until the next expansion, and modding tools until after the second expansion when there are no more patches to be released and the game is in a finished state.

The thing is that it's known at this point that a "complete" civ game isn't truly released until the second expansion, and the question is whether you find the game "enjoyable" at vanilla or at first expansion instead of "complete". I thought vanilla was fine and honestly haven't had too much issue with the AI. But I think even Firaxis considers the final expansion the "ideal" version of that iteration of civ, and the vanilla an acceptable point to release a functional, enjoyable (if a bit lacking) game that's still open for improvement.

 

[darkace77450]

This is a huge balance change, cementing gold as the top dog of resources. I think I like it, will make founding new cities late game more viable.

It also makes founding cities in high-food, low-production areas far more palatable.

 

[darkace77450]

It'd be nice to see loyalty work to bring City States officially into a Civilization via peaceful means.

"No, Brussels, you may NOT join my empire. I need you and your suzerain bonus right where you are."

 

[Kyro]

Praise be the gods for the new loyalty system and the new alliance mechanics.

Warmongering will no longer be supreme. Hopefully. Looking forward to peaceful expansion and powerful diplomatic choices.

 

[sonicmyst]

Got something that popped up in my imaginative mind.

What if spies now allow you to "assassinate" a governor and cause chaos and instability (removes the governor and lowers loyalty)?

 

[blackbutterfly]

Or, in the words of Donald Knuth, the doyen of computer science:
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil".

We're not talking about optimisation.

Fix bugs (like the start locations bug). Address AI shortcomings (as pointed out). If the AI currently fail to utilise the existing set of systems adding *more* systems isn't going to solve it

 

[darkace77450]

Got something that popped up in my imaginative mind.

What if spies now allow you to "assassinate" a governor and cause chaos and instability (removes the governor and lowers loyalty)?

Then it's Police State + Cryptography + a full-time counterespionage security detail for my governors.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Somewhere in the articles and videos that dropped today, one mentioned that the Government District would get buildings dependent on your government type.

Speculation: each tier of government associates with a building slot in the district.

So the first building slot could have an Autocracy, Oligarchy, or Classical Republic building and the second slot could hold a Merchant Republic, Monarchy, or Theocracy building, etc. And you probably can't put the same building in all three slots or put earlier buildings in later districts or vice versa.

I bet the Classical Republic building is a Forum and the Democracy building is a Parliament. We could probably figure out the rest.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I wonder... The new loyalty system allows peacefully eating city-states. The questions which come to mind:
1. Will you be able to liberate them using military? If yes, will they have the same influence as normally liberated city-states?
2. Will you be able to liberate them using loyalty system? Will "free cities" made from city-states become those city-states again?
3. What about cities conquerred from major civs, will they emerge as free cities or back to original owner right away?

So many potential pitfalls. I have a fear of some deep flow or exploits due to developers not ironing all specific cases of the game due to fast expansion release...

Got something that popped up in my imaginative mind.

What if spies now allow you to "assassinate" a governor and cause chaos and instability (removes the governor and lowers loyalty)?

Nearly impossible feature to implement. Spies are too cheap compared to governors. Losing governor to spy action would be a disaster. Temporary disable - yes, but spies have loyalty decrease missions anyway.

Somewhere in the articles and videos that dropped today, one mentioned that the Government District would get buildings dependent on your government type.

Speculation: each tier of government associates with a building slot in the district.

So the first building slot could have an Autocracy, Oligarchy, or Classical Republic building and the second slot could hold a Merchant Republic, Monarchy, or Theocracy building, etc. And you probably can't put the same building in all three slots or put earlier buildings in later districts or vice versa.

I bet the Classical Republic building is a Forum and the Democracy building is a Parliament. We could probably figure out the rest.

Sounds like very reasonable assumption.

 

[God of Kings]

Somewhere in the articles and videos that dropped today, one mentioned that the Government District would get buildings dependent on your government type.

Speculation: each tier of government associates with a building slot in the district.

So the first building slot could have an Autocracy, Oligarchy, or Classical Republic building and the second slot could hold a Merchant Republic, Monarchy, or Theocracy building, etc. And you probably can't put the same building in all three slots or put earlier buildings in later districts or vice versa.

I bet the Classical Republic building is a Forum and the Democracy building is a Parliament. We could probably figure out the rest.

The Chiefdom building is nothing; it's just the ability to construct a plain government district. The Theocracy building could be an Apostolic Palace.

 

[darkace77450]

Somewhere in the articles and videos that dropped today, one mentioned that the Government District would get buildings dependent on your government type.

Speculation: each tier of government associates with a building slot in the district.

So the first building slot could have an Autocracy, Oligarchy, or Classical Republic building and the second slot could hold a Merchant Republic, Monarchy, or Theocracy building, etc. And you probably can't put the same building in all three slots or put earlier buildings in later districts or vice versa.

I bet the Classical Republic building is a Forum and the Democracy building is a Parliament. We could probably figure out the rest.

That's an interesting idea, but if that means that 9 of the 14 new buildings we're getting then I hope you're wrong.

 

[Vahnstad]

Monarchy a garden maybe?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

That's an interesting idea, but if that means that 9 of the 14 new buildings we're getting then I hope you're wrong.

The thing I got that from (sorry, not going back through everything, maybe someone can corroborate) said buildings from governments, so yeah, at least 9 buildings of the 14 are for this district. If this works like the Holy Site and only the last spot is interchangeable, then it would actually be 11, with the last 3 probably going to the other new district.