[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Kimiimaro]

@Eagle Pursuit, any chances of getting some Civ first look tomorrow?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

@Eagle Pursuit, any chances of getting some Civ first look tomorrow?

It's possible. I'm leaning more towards next week though.

 

[Vahnstad]

Pretty sure the mountain's just a bog-standard mountain - they may have new art assets, but aside from anything else it's too close to Roirama to be a likely natural wonder placement if you're referring to the mountain I think you are.



Could it not just be a new building option for a Harbor district? The harbor looks identical to the existing district and there's precedent for a building being 'attached' to the end of a district (water mill with an aqueduct).

It's probably not a wonder, so you're right. Only three (out of seven) natural wonders are revealed so far (while we almost know all the wonders, there are even 9 candidates for 8 spots). Hopefully, the other four natural wonders will be interesting ones. Since we have three wonders from the America's now, the others will be from Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Oceania or Europe. Maybe we will see Erta Ale or Mount Fuji (though maybe too similar as Kilimanjaro (and probably Everest too)). Erebus would be nice as Erta Ale alternative, and would be the best polar natural wonder candidate (some kind of lava lake on top of a snow mountain-volcano type).

EDIT: Erta Ale could also work well in an Ethiopia DLC, but i think a wonder also did won a never before seen wonders elimination thread (and possible even the first one). The Chateau Frontenac also ended second in a specific thread (the third of fourth elimination thread one). Erta Ale won the second natural elimination thread. Mount Roraima, that won the first one, is already in the game (and i think Erebus ended fifth in that elimination game).

 

[CivLuvah]

I'm off this thread for one day and there's already 15 pages since I've last replied.



So do we expect the First Looks for the civa first then mechanics later?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm off this thread for one day and there's already 15 pages since I've last replied.



So do we expect the First Looks for the civa first then mechanics later?

That's what it says in the dev blog post.

 

[Disgustipated]

38 new achievements were just added.

quite recently in fact. I went from 100% to 80%. 153/191. These just showed up in the last couple hours I believe.

 

[Abraxis]

That preview strikes me as a not so subtle gambit to convince one of us to run for political office, likely so that Firaxis can then indirectly wield global influence by drip-feeding fixes to which ever one of us succeeds in exchange for global political leverage -to what end, who can say. To rededicate the world's resources to creating a Great Work of Videogaming, perhaps.

 

[Nikolai II]

Those who do bug fixes are completely separate from those who develop content.

You don't have much experience with game developement, do you.

 

[Vahnstad]

I agree that we might not be representative, but aren't we more influential considering the depth of analysis, passion and knowledge of the game presented in this forum and others? Or at the very least, are we not more in a position, because of the forum we have here and elsewhere, to communicate and present arguments to the developers?

They certainly don't listen to those ones, since they only complain about the AI (even if they didn't have played it), and only want Ataturk, Hitler and more American alternate leaders, so I like to believe that we have more influence on the devs, and Mount Roraima or Chateau Frontenac are even referenced to the never before seen lists here. (It doesn't have to be, but i still think that those were in a never before seen list are nice, especially since i've never heard about the second one). Here, people at least argue about a possible inclusion of a female leader of Benin or Tamar of Georgia. On youtube, all what they want, is give me Hitler (simply said, but i've made my point).

 

[Ferocitus]

No, specifically I mean real AI like OpenAI → https://openai.com/the-international/

IMO when it comes to software engineering real world work experience beats academic experience. It's like business. They are those who study it (and get MBAs, etc) and there are those who do it (like Steve Jobs) and build the largest (valued) companies in the world with revenues larger than GDPs of small countries.

It's why I don't particularly mind I didn't get to do the PhD. I got valuable work experience as well as getting to meet my childhood idol, said entrepreneur above.

Anyway I'm now half way through transitioning to law, to become a barrister (should my health and doctors allow it), so tech is only a hobby now.

I got my PhD without finishing an undergrad degree - practical applications,
like using EAs for ship and wing design, were the best way to keep grounded in
reality and to avoid the airy-fairy side of maths.

If you like logic, then the law could be perfect for you. My wife was a
barrister and the special logic of law is still a source of fascination for us.
As are the stories that come out of court work: I hope you find your own
equivalent of the Timsons in Rumpole's world!

I don't really like AI as a description of the Civ algorithms. They are not
self-adaptive enough to fit my personal definition. (I suspect that @stealth_nsk
might agree with that too.) I use the term on this forum because others are
comfortable with it.

As LeifEricson mentioned in response to another poster, different people have
different expectations from games at different stages. I want to see games I
like very early in their development, so I'm quite happy to accept some flaws in
return. If someone else doesn't then they can wait until it suits their
standards: they have no basis on which they should deny me my choice when they
have a clear alternative for themselves.

If you bought a TV and it could not display one particular channel until 4 years of updates would you consider that reasonable?

Yes, if I wanted to see TV early, and to watch how it developed over time.
Why do you think you have the right to deny me that when you have a
clear alternative, i.e. not to buy it until it works at a standard you find
acceptable?

This has to be the most absured quote I have ever heard, you had no expectation that a game you paid full price for would be complete and tough luck to those that did? My god no wonder they get away with releasing such flawed crap, completed products are not personal standards rather reasonable expectations of products released and paid for.

Moderator Action: Let's keep the discussion civil and realise people have different expectations and perceptions --NobleZarkon

It's even worse than that - I would be happy to pay a premium to see it even
earlier and in a worse state than it was released.

I encourage Firaxis to release stick-figure versions of Civ7, with music made by
hitting a bucket with a stick.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I don't really like AI as a description of the Civ algorithms. They are not
self-adaptive enough to fit my personal definition. (I suspect that @stealth_nsk
might agree with that too.) I use the term on this forum because others are
comfortable with it.

I don't think self-adaptive AI is a good thing for computer game, especially those targeting primarily single-player. It would create different user experience (including different difficulty) for different players, some players could experience very weird AI in this case. Anyway, there's no strict definition of AI term, it's short, it's in common use and the right term "computer-controlled opponent algorithms" is just too long. So using the "AI" term is ok for me.

 

[Ferocitus]

I prefer how Soren talked about it being done - the mechanics and AI etc were the important early focus. Pretty things could come in later. How could that get lost??

Yes, but many parts of the AI have to be dumped when new features
are introduced. Some, of course, stay but a lot of others have to be tweaked
or re-written.

I think a lot of the pretty things, the details at least, could be introduced late.
The mise en scène, the whole texture and feel of the graphics, would have
been worked on very early. (A guess, of course!)

 

[Zaarin]

I don't self-adaptive AI is a good thing for computer game, especially those targeting primarily single-player. It would create different user experience (including different difficulty) for different players, some players could experience very weird AI in this case. Anyway, there's no strict definition of AI term, it's short it's in common use and the right term "computer-controlled opponent algorithms" is just too long. So using the "AI" term is ok for me.

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding." Thanks, but Sins of a Solar Empire already has a Reaper for its AI; we don't need to unleash another fully sentient malevolent machine intelligence on the world.

 

[Ferocitus]

I don't self-adaptive AI is a good thing for computer game, especially those targeting primarily single-player. It would create different user experience (including different difficulty) for different players, some players could experience very weird AI in this case. Anyway, there's no strict definition of AI term, it's short it's in common use and the right term "computer-controlled opponent algorithms" is just too long. So using the "AI" term is ok for me.

That's what I'm working on - I want unique AI features to come into play, such as
for example, that Trajan "remembers" how I developed my empire at certain stages,
or how much emphasis I put on naval rather than ground forces.
Of course, that would not be applicable to all maps and scenarios in Civ. It is
only for particular instances, like Gedemon's Terra TSL maps with a fixed number
of civs.

Anyway, there's no strict definition of AI term, it's short it's in common use and the right term "computer-controlled opponent algorithms" is just too long. So using the "AI" term is ok for me.

That's why I use it here too.

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding." Thanks, but Sins of a Solar Empire already has a Reaper for its AI; we don't need to unleash another fully sentient malevolent machine intelligence on the world.

You'd only know about it if that machine intelligence was a crude protype.
A subtle, sophisticated one would go completely unnoticed by fragile bags
of water like you.

 

[bbbt]

That's what I'm working on - I want unique AI features to come into play, such as
for example, that Trajan "remembers" how I developed my empire at certain stages,
or how much emphasis I put on naval rather than ground forces.
Of course, that would not be applicable to all maps and scenarios in Civ. It is
only for particular instances, like Gedemon's Terra TSL maps with a fixed number
of civs.

I was under the impression, that agenda diplo boosts aside, the AI wasn't terribly reactionary in general and more or less just does what it does, except for some specific things like changing victory conditions. So I'm not sure Trajan even notices if you are putting more emphasis on naval even in your current game, which seems necessary before he can start using demographic information averaged across multiple games.

It's an interesting concept though, and seems like it could work on a very high-level/demographic level. Civ overall seems like a bad candidate for any sort of 'machine learning' techniques just because the data point to decision point ratio is so out of whack, especially with just a single player as a source of said data points (and, as you've noted - change any rules/mods and that would basically send it multiple steps back). But some sort of basic 'player has gone above average on culture the last 5 games, change the overall AI culture weighting accordingly', certainly seems feasible. Not that I think it would be high on the list of Firaxis's AI priorities (or even most players AI priorities for that matter).

 

[DWilson]

 

[Ferocitus]

Woot! Shape-shifting lizard people!

 

[clapyourhands]

9th mystery leader who could go anywhere

Guess a 3rd leader for Greece isn't out of the question . Maybe GH stood for "Great Hellenics".

 

[Janskey]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the whole expansion pack. I really hope they would improve the AI, but having read this earlier interview with Strenger, I don't really know what to expect ( http://gameaxis.com/interviews/interview-civilization-vi-snr-gameplay-designer-anton-strenger/ ). E.g. about the AI and settler stealing:

"Um, yeah. It was kind of something that we tried as an experiment. The reason, I believe, that settlers became builders in Civ V was that it was seen as too powerful to capture another player’s settler. But the A.I. in VI has improved quite a bit and it’s kind of frustrating if someone catches your settler and it turns into a builder, but then you can’t get back your settler."

30€ is basically nothing, but I'd still like to have a great game.

Considering the debate about wide vs. tall and realism in the last few pages, who is going to win in real life? We don't really need any more population, be it wide or tall.
http://scientistswarning.forestry.o.../files/Warning_article_with_supp_11-13-17.pdf
(World Scientists' Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice)

 

[PhilBowles]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the whole expansion pack. I really hope they would improve the AI, but having read this earlier interview with Strenger, I don't really know what to expect ( http://gameaxis.com/interviews/interview-civilization-vi-snr-gameplay-designer-anton-strenger/ ). E.g. about the AI and settler stealing:

"Um, yeah. It was kind of something that we tried as an experiment. The reason, I believe, that settlers became builders in Civ V was that it was seen as too powerful to capture another player’s settler. But the A.I. in VI has improved quite a bit and it’s kind of frustrating if someone catches your settler and it turns into a builder, but then you can’t get back your settler."

30€ is basically nothing, but I'd still like to have a great game.

Considering the debate about wide vs. tall and realism in the last few pages, who is going to win in real life? We don't really need any more population, be it wide or tall.
http://scientistswarning.forestry.o.../files/Warning_article_with_supp_11-13-17.pdf
(World Scientists' Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice)

I'm a bit cautious about anything designed by someone who claims "the A.I. in VI has improved quite a bit", let alone someone who said that even earlier in Civ VI's life cycle. By the measures players care about the AI as of the latest patch isn't up to Gods & Kings standard, and specifically it's both worse at protecting settlers and makes less of an effort to prioritise capturing players' civilians.

This isn't simply a jab at the AI once again - if the designer in charge of the expansion really doesn't understand that there are major issues with the AI relative to the last release, including in specific areas he refers to, then either something has gone wrong elsewhere in the code that prevents the AI from operating as intended, or he genuinely feels they've done an adequate job with it despite objective evidence to the contrary in regard to the specific behaviour he mentions. That reduces my confidence that AI behaviour issues may go unsolved in the expansion.