[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Vahnstad]

My deal with Cappadocia is if it is indeed true, an Anatolian civ may be one of the last three. We could easily put it in with the Hagia Sofia. Lydia would make me thrilled & it'd fit in with the Greek city-state ordeal they're enjoying. Queen Tamar from Georgia seems to also be favored from this forum & they appear to be aiming to please our fantasies.

Inca & Maya would provide a handsome DLC pack à la Khmer-Indonesia.

I really REALLY want the Conch Republic. Pirates would be so much fun. Pipe dreams lol

This could also mean that we won't see Byzantium or the Ottomans, but maybe the Hittites. It could be a compromise between a battle of a Otto / Byzantines and a Babylon / Carthage slot with a Cradle of Civilization civ centered in Anatolia, and also a return of a civ that didn't made it in Five, and if Kilwa is in the game, we won't need a maritime Anatolian civ (yet). And the game desperately needs more science civs, and Korea won't be enough.



The wiki says this

Göreme (pronounced [ˈɟøɾeme]; Ancient Greek: Κόραμα, Kòrama), located among the "fairy chimney" rock formations, is a town in Cappadocia, a historical region of Turkey. It is in the Nevşehir Province in Central Anatolia and has a population of around 2,000 people.[1]

Former names of the town have been Korama, Matiana, Maccan or Machan, and Avcilar.[2] When Göreme Valley nearby was designated an important tourist destination, a "center" for all tourism in Cappadocia, the name of the town was changed to Göreme for practical reasons.

The Göreme National Park (tr) (Göreme Tarihî Millî Parkı in Turkish) was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1985.[1]

The time that the Göreme was first settled is unclear, but it could date back as the Hittite era, between 1800 and 1200 B.C. The location was central between rivaling empires, such as the Greeks and Persians, leading the natives to tunnel into the rock to escape the political turmoil.

_____________________________

Cappadocia was known as Hatti in the late Bronze Age, and was the homeland of the Hittite power centred at Hattusa.

 

[PhilBowles]

Russia was humiliated in WW1 and the Russo-Japanese war, and the demographics actually say something different. I don't understand why anyone is so forgiving for the tsars and that we all have to believe that communism is the worst, because it was not as long Stalin wasn't in power.

A final comment here - it's not so much being "forgiving of the tsars" as seeing them from an outside perspective. I can't imagine Russian education has anything positive to say about them even in the post-Soviet era, and as that appears to be your background it's not surprising if your view on them isn't precisely impartial. I've visited the Winter Palace and came away with the impression that the only reason it survived the communist era was because it provides ready-made propaganda: "look how disgustingly opulent and decadent they were while the workers toiled away". Russia modernised under several of them, notably Peter, Catherine and Alexanders I and II - and while it also modernised under communism there's no particular reason to believe it wouldn't have under continued monarchy; even Nicholas II appears to have been guilty more of being passive and disinterested in modernising the government than instinctively autocratic.

It's not exactly the height of nuanced political commentary, but I always found it striking - coming as it did from an American writer immersed in the capitalist democracy chest-thumping mania of the Cold War - that one of the alien characters in Harry Turtledove's Worldwar series, in explaining the variety of human government systems on WWII Earth to his superior, notes that they all basically function more or less as well as one another.

 

[PhilBowles]

I would love Pamukkale as a Turkish wonder too, but Cappadocia seems like a good catch. I've mentioned Pinatubo before. Funny that you see it too, but it doesn't look exactly the same. If we will see Gran Colombia in the game, i think they will just name it Colombia with Simon Bolivar as leader. If your 9 civilizations are right, we would lack severely pre-Columbian civilizations in the game, but it seems like this is the way to go, and colonial nations are more likely to be in the game now. I wouldn't mind Colombia actually (but for a second or third expansion), as i'm a Latin-Americanophile (one of the reasons why i'm hoping for Inca's or Maya's, or in a future expansion Muisca, Cuba, Mexico, Taino), but Inca's and Maya's are the most important ones obviously.

Everyone seems to favour Inca as the most likely American insertion, but the Maya were longer-lasting and there's no representation for Central America (though I'll grant it's not a large area and on TSL maps will run into competition with the Aztecs). The most obvious Maya wonder is already in the game, so there's no real clue either way from what we've seen of the new wonders to date. If not for series tradition, I'd say Maya should always be the first indigenous American civ to be represented, ahead of the Aztecs who always get top billing.

 

[eso12por8]

This could also mean that we won't see Byzantium or the Ottomans, but maybe the Hittites. It could be a compromise between a battle of a Otto / Byzantines and a Babylon / Carthage slot with a Cradle of Civilization civ centered in Anatolia, and also a return of a civ that didn't made it in Five, and if Kilwa is in the game, we won't need a maritime Anatolian civ (yet). And the game desperately needs more science civs, and Korea won't be enough.



Cappadocia was known as Hatti in the late Bronze Age, and was the homeland of the Hittite power centred at Hattusa.

Key things to look out for:
Lydian Coin:

Check this out, Lydian Queen Omphale. Keep in mind, Troy was a part of Lydia. Smyrna, where my family is from, as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphale

 

[Vahnstad]

Everyone seems to favour Inca as the most likely American insertion, but the Maya were longer-lasting and there's no representation for Central America (though I'll grant it's not a large area and on TSL maps will run into competition with the Aztecs). The most obvious Maya wonder is already in the game, so there's no real clue either way from what we've seen of the new wonders to date. If not for series tradition, I'd say Maya should always be the first indigenous American civ to be represented, ahead of the Aztecs who always get top billing.

Aztecs have more known leaders, and they actually take their spot right now, and I doubt that region will have another civ immediately. Inca's fit more geographically, and have also a certain niche (mountain civ) gameplay-wise, although the Maya's could fit very well in this expansion with Golden and Dark Ages, since their civilization was prone to it, as depicted in the well known Maya Calendar.

I don't agree with you, not going to elaborate on it, since i would have to use more politically tinted arguments, but for your information. I have no link to Russia. I'm born and being grown up in Belgium and I think our youth is being teached to be critical of the American system too.

 

[Ferocitus]

Russia was humiliated in WW1 and the Russo-Japanese war, and the demographics actually say something different. I don't understand why anyone is so forgiving for the tsars and that we all have to believe that communism is the worst, because it was not as long Stalin wasn't in power.

Russian advancement might have happened a lot faster if Brits (among several
others) had not interfered directly to hamper the efforts of the Bolsheviks. A
particularly nasty episode was the establishment of a British concentration camp
in Archangel in 1918.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-41271418

So, anyone for concentration camps in the new expansion? Every civ can have
them!

 

[liv]

Russian advancements where?
When the allies moved in there it was because Russia withdrew from the war and the British was worried about equipment in the area falling in the wrong hands

 

[PhilBowles]

Russian advancements where?
When the allies moved in there it was because Russia withdrew from the war and the British was worried about equipment in the area falling in the wrong hands

I believe he's referring to social rather than military advances, but the North Russia Intervention in an essentially rural area of northern Russia during the civil war was of no consequence in that regard.

The British certainly had incentives beyond military considerations for moving against communism (although the "wrong hands" they had in mind certainly included Russian Bolshevik forces). The country was the most hostile to communism certainly of any in Europe at the time, and likely globally - I've read suggestions that British propaganda played a significant role in developing America's cultural aversion to communism, Britain at this stage still being the senior partner in the nascent trans-Atlantic relationship.

British leaders had been in perpetual fear of a revolution of some kind since the mainland monarchies began collapsing in the 19th Century, and as the most heavily industrialised nation in the world - and as such critically dependent on a large force of manual factory workers - British officials were very alert to any scent of Bolshevism. As late as the 1930s Britain remained passive and turned a blind eye to Hitler and Mussolini's support for fascist forces in Spain (to the surprise of both, one of whom remarked that they wouldn't get away with it if the British worked out what they were up to - in reality it was in British interests for them to succeed), since although Britain wasn't willing to officially support fascist forces itself it was in its interests to see Spanish communism suppressed.

 

[liv]

OK last history note from me before I move to the history forum... The Bolsheviks controlled relatively little territory in 1918. It was an uphill climb. The British was a minor hindrance compared to the fact that almost all aspects of Russian society was not on their side.
I did love that BBC story. When in travelled in Communist Eastern Europe I remember so many "museums" just like that. It was very fascinating to see the fate of that one

 

[Guatenadian]

Is there a possibility that we could be getting a First Look tomorrow? Or maybe next Thursday?

 

[4N4C0ND4]

For some reason, when I look at the cone mountain, Nyiragongo pops out in my mind.

From someone living in Goma and seing Nyiragongo from my windows, it doesn't really look like that for me.

But muchos kuddos to you for knowing about this awesome volcano

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Is there a possibility that we could be getting a First Look tomorrow? Or maybe next Thursday?

Maybe. Next week is more likely.

 

[ferretbacon]

Maybe. Next week is more likely.

I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but tomorrow doesn't seem too far-fetched. With 9 first looks to show off (8 new civs + the new alt leader) and as many weeks before release to upload them, I think there's a decent chance we get one tomorrow. Also consider how Christmas week might effect their uploading schedule. Though Christmas is on a Monday this year, Firaxis may very well block off the entirety of that following week for its employees. On top of that, I figure they'd want to be done with reveals by release week.

In any case, there's really not a lot of time to drag out their reveals.

 

[KayAU]

I'm late to the party, and now there are 37 pages of discussion already. Oh well.

This expansion looks interesting, although it is hard to tell how a lot of these features are going to impact the game overall. It seems they may be trying to make the game more dynamic, making changes that will upset the balance of power throughout the game. This is a good thing. If it succeeds, perhaps I will no longer know who have won by the early medieval era.

I am also hopeful that the new loyalty mechanic will be effective in limiting and pacing expansion. Ideally, I hope that tall will be made feasible again, but even if it isn't, just having some mechanism which makes overextension a consideration will be an improvement on how things are currently.

I wonder how the new uses for coastal tiles will affect Indonesia's relative power level. Currently, most coastal tiles are fairly useless for most civilizations, unless you luck out and get Auckland. Indonesia is the one civ which can make great use of them, but that may no longer be the case in Rise and Fall.

Another thing I am hoping for is a UI and AI overhaul, although I am not terribly optimistic.

 

[KayAU]

Because some people like me couldn't stand Civ5. If you want tall empires, go play Civ5.

same here, i hate civ 5. I prefer a thousand times more civ 6 with it's ai, than the worst civ game ever: civ 5. I played civ 6 more 3 times more than civ 5, and it's still one year after the release of vanilla. Going wide is not viable in civ 5 (at least not for me).

If these were the olden days, I would be challenging you guys to a duel by now.

I loved Civ 5, and I loved playing tall. Perhaps the mechanisms they used for limiting expansion were not the best, and perhaps it went a bit too far in favor of tall, but at least both tall and wide were somewhat feasible. That's basically what I want. Both playstyles, and even something in between, should be viable. I am not asking you guys to "go play Risk or Monopoly" because you like wide, I want it to still be feasible. But there does need to be some restrictions in how fast and wide you can expand without getting into trouble. As it is currently, the optimal strategy is always to beat up your neighbors (which is extremely easy) in the ancient or classical era, and just cruise to victory.

 

[bbbt]

I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but tomorrow doesn't seem too far-fetched. With 9 first looks to show off (8 new civs + the new alt leader) and as many weeks before release to upload them, I think there's a decent chance we get one tomorrow. Also consider how Christmas week might effect their uploading schedule. Though Christmas is on a Monday this year, Firaxis may very well block off the entirety of that following week for its employees. On top of that, I figure they'd want to be done with reveals by release week.

In any case, there's really not a lot of time to drag out their reveals.

On one hand, they may save most til nearer launch to double up in a week and generate more excitement building up to the launch. Otoh maybe some big names dropped now might get the pre-order in as a Xmas gift request.

With the expansion arriving in the beginning of February, I doubt anyone on the Civ team is getting Xmas week off. Though I'm sure a number will be working from laptops at their family houses or the like. It does seem like a bad week to drop a first look though, I agree.

 

[Vahnstad]

From someone living in Goma and seing Nyiragongo from my windows, it doesn't really look like that for me.

But muchos kuddos to you for knowing about this awesome volcano

It had a famous eruption in 2002 which unfortunately killed a lot of people. I think it's one of the most famous African volcanoes. Meanwhile, right now Agung is preparing itself for a medium to large eruption right now, so interesting times ahead. And in Iceland, a volcano that didn't erupt in 300 years is also preparing itself for an eruption / awakening / showing activity so our next Iceland natural wonder in civ VII may very well be Oraefajokull.

 

[seancolorado]

It had a famous eruption in 2002 which unfortunately killed a lot of people. I think it's one of the most famous African volcanoes. Meanwhile, right now Agung is preparing itself for a medium to large eruption right now, so interesting times ahead. And in Iceland, a volcano that didn't erupt in 300 years is also preparing itself for an eruption / awakening / showing activity so our next Iceland natural wonder in civ VII may very well be Oraefajokull.

I am supposed to travel to Bali next month but I am concerned that Mount Agung will keep the airport shut down. I love hiking Indonesia's volcanoes because they are beautiful, but the current situation is a reminder that Mother Nature rules at the end of the day - especially in the "archipelago of fire"

 

[Vahnstad]

I am supposed to travel to Bali next month but I am concerned that Mount Agung will keep the airport shut down. I love hiking Indonesia's volcanoes because they are beautiful, but the current situation is a reminder that Mother Nature rules at the end of the day - especially in the "archipelago of fire"

Indonesia is a beautiful country with lots of volcanoes. I think I know several volcanoes like Toba, Maninjau, Ranau, (Anak-)Krakatau, Sinabung, Merapi, Kelud, Ijen, Batur, Agung, Rinjani/Samalas and Tambora. That's plenty of them. It has a violent past. Tambora caused a Year Without A Summer in 1816 and is the most explosive recent eruption (and it's situated so close to Agung). Rinjani (the direct neigbour) may very well be the largest eruption of the last 2000 years in 1257, plunged us into the little ice age (the trigger), stopped the Mongol expansion, and destroyed an entire Indonesian kingdom completely (it's called The Pompeii of the East). The other very large eruptions are an eruption of the Taupo Volcano in 260+-, Lake Ilopango (in El Salvador) around +- 535 (that caused extreme weather events and turmoil in the Mayan Empire), Paektusan (The Holy Mountain of North Korea) did erupt around +- 970. Eldgja also did erupt around then in Iceland (a flood basalt that lasted 6 years). Laki in Iceland in 1783 caused a very large magmatic eruption, possibly triggering the French Revolution due failing crops, and creating famine in India since monsoons were altered because of the volcano. Huaynaputina in Peru in 1600 or 1601 caused famine in Russia after a very large eruption. Krakatau was deadly, and had a notable effect on the climate too. Mount Mazama (or Crater Like in CIV VI) did erupt +- 10.000 years ago (not entirely sure about dating), creating the "crater lake". The largest eruption of the last 2 million years ago was Lake Toba, only 72.000 years ago, creating the human bottleneck generation (the reason why we have so few DNA variation compared to other animals, since the human race almost went extinct to the volcanic winter that did follow. Campi Flegrei may have played a role in the extinction of the Neanderthalers +- 39.000 years ago (although there are records that they were still walking around 30.000 years ago).

This is Tambora. It's crater looks nice (formed in 1815). In the winter that did follow, snow was being reported in the summer multiple times in both New England and Europe. To me, that sounds so hard to believe but it's called the Year Without A Summer for a reason, and recently we had a lot of Sahara Dust and Forest Fire Dust in England and Belgium that was being brought by us due Hurricane Ophelia (another unique thing...), that covered the sun for 1-2 days, lowering temperatures during those days with 5 degrees Celsius more than what they did expect (and on Twitter everyone was talking about the Red Sun or the eerie-looking outside world). When a volcano erupts in a very explosive way, the same must have happened but for a year or longer (together with changes in stratosphere / monsoons ... )



This is Toba Lake$



Unbelievable that this lake was generated by a single volcanic eruption. This lake contains more water than The Dead Sea. Most likely nothing in Indonesia must have been left alive, and the volcanic winter that followed on this eruption lasted according to models for 50 to 100 years.

And massive Siberian volcanism (flood basalts) may also be responsible for the Great Dying Event 250 million years ago, killing 96% of all animal species back then, paving the way for the Dinosaurs for world domination (although ecosystems only fully recovered 30 millions years later). This is known as the largest volcanic event known. There is even a theory that an asteroid did hit the antipole of Siberia back then (where Siberia was located), and created a mantleplume on the other pole, and analysis indeed uncover a possible large crater under the ice cap of Antarctica (most likely created 250 mya, and at the antipole of Siberia back then, and two and a half times larger than the Dino Asteroid Crater in Yucatan. They also tracked the mantleplume (since continental crusts move over time over hotspots and mantleplumes), and the mantleplume that created that mass-extinction event back then, is now located right under Iceland (responsible for the formation of Iceland and it's volcanism).

 

[KayAU]

I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but tomorrow doesn't seem too far-fetched. With 9 first looks to show off (8 new civs + the new alt leader) and as many weeks before release to upload them, I think there's a decent chance we get one tomorrow. Also consider how Christmas week might effect their uploading schedule. Though Christmas is on a Monday this year, Firaxis may very well block off the entirety of that following week for its employees. On top of that, I figure they'd want to be done with reveals by release week.

In any case, there's really not a lot of time to drag out their reveals.

I doubt we will get first looks this week. The release is still some time away, and with the announcement of the expansion this week, they probably don't need to release anything until next week to keep the discussion going. I would love to be wrong, though. The first looks will hopefully reveal more details about the new features.