[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Guandao]

La Venta could be replaced with Rapa Nui (if the Olmec heads were replaced with moai).

The Olmecs have no chance of becoming a Civ, given we don't know the names of any of their leaders. Same goes for Harappa (Mohenjo-daro).

 

[marius_kaparius]

The Olmecs have no chance of becoming a Civ, given we don't know the names of any of their leaders. Same goes for Harappa (Mohenjo-daro).

That's frustrating. Can we as a forum not Kickstart an archaeological expedition to discover some leader names and bio?

 

[ferretbacon]

That's frustrating. Can we as a forum not Kickstart an archaeological expedition to discover some leader names and bio?

That would take our fanaticism to new heights. Though there are worse ways than groundbreaking archaeological discoveries to leverage our fervor.

 

[Guandao]

That's frustrating. Can we as a forum not Kickstart an archaeological expedition to discover some leader names and bio?

I don't really find the Olmecs that interesting (only their art). The claim that they were the mother-culture of Mesoamerica is inaccurate.
Here's the closest artifact we have to Olmec writing, the Cascajal Block.

 

[Zaarin]

When I play, I don't want to get the feeling of "Him again?" or "Her again?"

Eventually, with more civs, you won't see that devout feisty churro-eating rapier-wielding grinning Spaniard as often (who is actually not feisty in real life).

Alexander the Obnoxious. Every. Single. Game.

That's frustrating. Can we as a forum not Kickstart an archaeological expedition to discover some leader names and bio?

While we're dreaming, can we get Linear A/Minoan Hieroglyphics translated, too?

I don't really find the Olmecs that interesting (only their art). The claim that they were the mother-culture of Mesoamerica is inaccurate.

Indeed. Evidence is strongly leaning towards the early Maya being contemporary with the Olmec, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[agonistes]

We have seen Granada and Stockholm in R&F videos, so they definitely aren't civs.

Or they just haven't renamed them. Hard to say what work is being saved for the last two months.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

That's frustrating. Can we as a forum not Kickstart an archaeological expedition to discover some leader names and bio?

An archaeologist pushes through the jungle, swatting away bugs. He consults his GPS then kneels in front of a boulder. He brushes away some moss, revealing hewn edges and a motif with pictograms. He runs his hands over the pictograms and mumbles to himself, "Soaring Jaguar Teeth, king of the Olmecs."
He stands, dials a number on his satellite phone, and without even a greeting says, "Alert Civfanatics. I've found it."

"No good." the voice on the other end responds, "Look for a queen."

 

[agonistes]

An archaeologist pushes through the jungle, swatting away bugs. He consults his GPS then kneels in front of a boulder. He brushes away some moss, revealing hewn edges and a motif with pictograms. He runs his hands over the pictograms and mumbles to himself, "Soaring Jaguar Teeth, king of the Olmecs."
He stands, dials a number on his satellite phone, and without even a greeting says, "Alert Civfanatics. I've found it."

If Firaxis really wants to impress me, Laura Croft will give us a mention in the new Tomb Raider previews.

 

[marius_kaparius]

An archaeologist pushes through the jungle, swatting away bugs. He consults his GPS then kneels in front of a boulder. He brushes away some moss, revealing hewn edges and a motif with pictograms. He runs his hands over the pictograms and mumbles to himself, "Soaring Jaguar Teeth, king of the Olmecs."
He stands, dials a number on his satellite phone, and without even a greeting says, "Alert Civfanatics. I've found it."

LOL. I am kind of serious though. Would be happy to donate to such a thing. Maybe there is an existing group of scholars that we can work with? Another good PR move would be if Firaxis makes an "Unknown leader" DLC pack that groups these kinds of civs where there is no animated leader screen, but everything else about the civ is mapped out. Proceeds then go to research.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

An archaeologist pushes through the jungle, swatting away bugs. He consults his GPS then kneels in front of a boulder. He brushes away some moss, revealing hewn edges and a motif with pictograms. He runs his hands over the pictograms and mumbles to himself, "Soaring Jaguar Teeth, king of the Olmecs."
He stands, dials a number on his satellite phone, and without even a greeting says, "Alert Civfanatics. I've found it."

"No good." the voice on the other end responds, "Look for a queen."

If Jadwiga is a king, surely Soaring Jaguar Teeth could be a woman as well.

 

[AvianBritish]

*grumble grumble grumble* I get fed up seeing the same leaders again and again and again. It's like there are only 27 of them. *He says playing a Ludicrous size map with all 27 leaders on it.*

(This is a joke btw)

 

[AvianBritish]

These are good choices to put your bets on. I think there's a high chance every one will be in there (we already know about 1 and 2). And I would be happy with this list myself.

I could also see France, Egypt, or India getting the second leader as well.

Hmm.. The more I think about it; the less I think we will get Portugal...

Netherlands are confirmed; they are a colonial naval power. I have a good feeling the Ottomans will be in this; they will likely have the Janissary as a unique unit but will have some sort of naval bonuses. If Isabella of Castelle becomes an alt leader for Spain she might also have naval bonuses. Essentially; with the Netherlands, Ottomans and possibly Isabella; Portugal might bee too much in terms of "Naval power in Europe*". So I'm inclined to think maybe we will have a more land-based European Civ like Austria (I think a returning Maria would be good for "Rising and Falling").

But I just realised... I think we will end up having nearly all of the Civs we had in Civ5 with only a handful of dropouts or changes; so if you ignore all currently known Civ6 Europeans, we are currently only waiting on Celts, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Venice and Portugal. (Let's just ignore Huns, Byzantium and Ottomans).
Celts are likely to return at some point, along with Sweden, Austria and Portugal.
Venice was cool and unique, I can see them returning with the "1 city challenge" idea (and would very much love for them to return!), but it may just be that one too special to duplicate in Civ6, making it more special in Civ5.
The only one I can't see returning is Denmark; I feel that the Viking role has been handed to Norway (which I prefer tbh) and Copenhagen will result in a city-state with some sort of Viking related ability. (I think Amsterdam's "City-state status" will be transferred to Copenhagen)

So if we have 3 Expansions, you could average out "main" previous European Civs in each:
EXP1 (Rise and Fall): Dutch & Portugal
EXP2: Sweden & Celts
EXP3: Austria & Venice* (I discounted Venice as a "main" previous European Civ above)

Perhaps if Netherlands AND Portugal are in this expansion, both of their Commercial City-states will be replaced with Copenhagen and Venice respectively?

Sorry for my long winded rambling going back and forth; I just through this would be a nice little brain storm.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To get back on track: I've read that there's a new unit on the pikeman line called "pike & shot" in the XP.

Why? That makes no sense to me.

The pike&shot era of warfare is perfectly well represented in Civ6 as is, by pikeman and musketmen being available at the same time. If the strengths/costs are rebalanced (*ahem* as in 8 Ages of War *ahem*) then it is common to have armies featuring both units. I know that pike&shot was really a single formation and 1UPT can't represent that, but that seems a tiny abstraction compared to the others made in civ. Instead, will we now have pike&shot and muskets available at the same time? I've never heard of the pike&shot&shot era of European warfare before.

If you want to make late-medieval to industrial warfare "match history" you only need to add one unit. Something that comes at the same as the French Garde or English Redcoat and represents the bayonet and post-match-lock armed infantry of the Napoleonic. Call it Fusilier, although I guess Riflemen might be a more recognised (if far less accurate) name. The different periods of warfare are then represented by:
pre-gunpowder: Sword and Pikes
pike&shot (1530-1700): Pikes and Muskets
Napoleonic (1700-1850): Muskets and Fusiliers (Muskets would represent the grenadier-type shock troops)
Industrial (1850-1940): Fusiliers and Infantry (Fusilier being the common foot soldier, Infantry the shock troops with repeating/automatic weapons)
and so on...
Obviously, still a lot of abstraction here, but I'm staying within the framework of each unit being alive for two eras so that is obviously a necessity.

An alternative could just being a grenadier coming an era later than the pike and shot, to make it more in line with upgrading to an AT Crew. However we don't know what details or what the units will look like to make any sort of assumptions. Now we just need to address the cavalry side of units.

 

[Phoenix1595]

Perhaps if Netherlands AND Portugal are in this expansion, both of their Commercial City-states will be replaced with Copenhagen and Venice respectively?.

I think you are right with Copenhagen replacing Amsterdam. I always found the City-State mechanism a good way to include "minor" civs that were worth including in the game while not creating full-fledged civs. Denmark is a wonderful country, and as a person with Danish ancestry, I loved how they wer included in Civ5, but I don't think they are needed in Civ6 with the inclusion of Norway-- a simple CS will suffice. Copenhagen was a major seaport and commercial center on the North Sea, like Amsterdam, so it would be a good swap.

I'm not sold on Venice as a CS, though, unless they add several Italian cities as CSs as well (i.e. Florence, Milan, Genoa). Their exclusion from the base game as CSs, and the apparent non-addition of any extra CSs in R&F is enough for me to believe either a) to expect some sort of later, non-Roman, Italy-based civ, or b) there inclusion as CSs in another expansion. The trailer's plague scene gives some evidence that an Italian Renaissance-based civ is possible, and Venice is high on the list.

 

[Vahnstad]

They need to replace it with Antwerp. They need to add Copenhagen as an entirely new city state.

 

[AvianBritish]

I think you are right with Copenhagen replacing Amsterdam. I always found the City-State mechanism a good way to include "minor" civs that were worth including in the game while not creating full-fledged civs. Denmark is a wonderful country, and as a person with Danish ancestry, I loved how they wer included in Civ5, but I don't think they are needed in Civ6 with the inclusion of Norway-- a simple CS will suffice. Copenhagen was a major seaport and commercial center on the North Sea, like Amsterdam, so it would be a good swap.

I'm not sold on Venice as a CS, though, unless they add several Italian cities as CSs as well (i.e. Florence, Milan, Genoa). Their exclusion from the base game as CSs, and the apparent non-addition of any extra CSs in R&F is enough for me to believe either a) to expect some sort of later, non-Roman, Italy-based civ, or b) there inclusion as CSs in another expansion. The trailer's plague scene gives some evidence that an Italian Renaissance-based civ is possible, and Venice is high on the list.

Well if Lisbon becomes Portugal then perhaps Marrakesh could be made a commercial City State in it's place?

With any luck; we will get a better idea at who's still a city state or who is a new city state in 20mins.
If there is a new industrial/production city-state that it would most likely mean we will either have Canada, Argentina, New Zealand or Hong Kong as a Civ or similar situations (however Hong Kong won't be more then a City-state unless for sure, and I swear I saw Auckland in the Korea first look but it turns out I was just remembering the the player wasn't the suzerain of any industrial city-states while they had a coastal "reef" tile with +1 production on it)

 

[eso12por8]

I will put my bets on:

1. Korea
2. Netherlands
3. Canada or NA tribe
4. Ottomans
5. Portugal
6. Mali
7. Inca or Maya
8. Mongolia
9. Isabella of Spain or Constantine of Rome or Bismark of Germany.

We have very similar lists. Considering the Ottomans exterminated my ancestors, I have very little desire to ever have them but a Greek Anatolian Civ would make my heart whole.

Essentially you have the two I’m begrudgingly accepting may be true but I’m still hanging on to hope.

 

[God of Kings]

Adding Grenadier as an upgrade between musketman and Infantry could work, although it feels little clumsy. That would require a new era to be added into the game around the Renaissance - Enlightenment era anyone? That could result in a new Cuirassier or Hussar unit between knights and cavalry too.

But I think I've said enough about my desire for an Enlightenment era already on these forums...

I agree. I'm among the ones who suggested the Enlightenment Era.

 

[Lord Xavius]

Going back to the topic of city-states, Buenos Aires, Brussels, Geneva, Hattusa, Kabul, Muscat, Preslav, and Valletta are all still in the game as per the stream. No new ones have been sighted.

 

[Leyrann]

I do have to mention I'm kinda worried about ages lasting too long, at least on longer game times. I'm not really looking forward to playing 80 turns of dark age or 80 turns of golden age on epic, would rather have them a bit shorter, allowing a bit more variation.