These are intriguing ideas. Certainly something to reflect the Hermit Kingdom period (most of the Joseon Dynasty period) would be interesting.
Hopefully some modders will get on the task.
[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread
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These are intriguing ideas. Certainly something to reflect the Hermit Kingdom period (most of the Joseon Dynasty period) would be interesting.
Hopefully some modders will get on the task.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Counterpoint from this Korean: Korea at least in Sejong and Seondeok's time was known for science (Hall of Worthies, hwacha and numerous scholars and scientists during Sejong's time, and the crafting of Hangul, whereas Seondeok led a Silla Golden Age with the oldest surviving observatory in east Asia and maybe the world). So I don't know if you discussed that with historians when you were in Korea, but those two periods stand out (though more people know about Sejong since he's a national hero like Admiral Yi Sunshin and unlike Seondeok).
If Korea was being portrayed in Civ as scientific during the reigns of unscientific leaders like Gwanggaeto the Great, then that might be an issue. But see how people were ok with an 18th century Scottish science bonus for a medieval Scottish leader and you will see that temporal consistency in bonuses is not always required (golf courses, really?) In the words of others in these forums, leader and civ abilities are distinct.
"Hyper nationalist Koreans" have vowed to boycott Rise and Fall due to perceived insults over Seondeok being chosen as leader. I sincerely doubt any Korean would only buy an expansion with a scientific Korea in it. People were happy to buy Civ V's Korea DLC despite the bad voiceover for Sejong because they otherwise deemed the visuals for Sejong fine, and of course it helps to be DLC in a way since they got their own Korea scenario. Of course people like it when their nation isn't portrayed as OP--that's true almost everywhere.
I agree with you that the Korea Civ design in Civ VII is lazy though--notably, explanatory and contextual text explaining how "Three Kingdoms" is associated with a mine/farm bonus is missing from the Rise and Fall Korea page. Why? Because there is no connection between the Three Kingdoms period of Korean history and mine/farm bonuses. "Morning Calm" would be a better suited Civ ability name, and could come with reduced war weariness during defensive wars.
I was expecting Seondeok to get faith/diplomatic bonuses given her Buddhist focus and Tang Chinese alliance, and suggested some related trade route/Hwarang unique unit bonuses in the "Design-your-own-Civ" thread (parent post) in the Ideas and Suggestions forum. That being said, her "Cheoseongdae" agenda (named after the observatory) focusing on science is not idly named, even if it's weird the later-era seowon is Seondeok's science proxy.
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I am well aware that Korea had brief periods of scientific accomplishment but anyone who is truly honest would have to admit that Korea’s scientific contribution to the world has been modest at best.
During the Four Kingdom Period (Let’s not forget Gaya) the Korean kingdoms were not known for their scientific prowess. Certainly Shilla built an observatory but that was hardly earth shattering. Plenty of other civilizations had built those and much earlier than Korea, notably Chinese ones. The Korean one only has the distinction of being the earliest one still intact. Korea has been blessed with low levels of seismic activity so it hasn’t fallen down yet, that’s all.
Under Sejong, Korea had their golden age. They were certainly blessed with a large amount of technology diffusion from the Mongols during the Yuan Dynasty. The Chinese were not so willing to share. Also, as the Yuan dynasty crumbled, I am sure you are aware of how a Korean stole the secret to gunpowder. There was certainly a fair amount of innovation but not much in the way of invention. Perhaps there needs to be a better way to model innovation in Civ games as Korea would certainly get a bonus for it, IMHO.
However, this golden age quickly faded because the Neo-Confuscianists were not interested in scientific discovery or innovation. Sejong was a remarkable leader as much for his forward thinking as he was for being an exception to the rule. His formulation of Hangul (borrowing from the brilliant invention by Phags Pa and adapting it for Korean) was rejected by the Yangban scholarly elite and then outright banned by Korean kings within about 50 years of Sejong’s death. It was not widely used until after Japan freed Korea from China in 1895.
Korea then stagnated very badly for the rest of the Joseon Dynasty period and its isolationism crippled it. Only within the last 30 years or so has Korea contributed scientifically to the world in any meaningful fashion.
So, for a vast majority of its history, Korea has not been scientifically prominent. This is my point and why I say that making Korea a scientific powerhouse is ahistorical.
As to your suggestions regarding Korea getting faith/diplomatic bonuses, I wholeheartedly agree. I would say that Korea should also get cultural and loyalty bonuses. There is a lot of interesting things they could do.
As it stands now, a lot of people are going to hate Korea in Civ VI. Korea will constantly be leading in tech (the AI knows how to do this, it would seem) and will be sending snide remarks reminding you of that. So, people will be looking to wipe out the tech leader (kill the snake when it is young) rather than engaging with it. I think Korea could have been really fun as an AI Civ with diplomatic abilities but now that will not be the case. I do hope that modders will be able to create a more interesting Korea. Let’s hope.
During the Four Kingdom Period (Let’s not forget Gaya) the Korean kingdoms were not known for their scientific prowess. Certainly Shilla built an observatory but that was hardly earth shattering. Plenty of other civilizations had built those and much earlier than Korea, notably Chinese ones. The Korean one only has the distinction of being the earliest one still intact. Korea has been blessed with low levels of seismic activity so it hasn’t fallen down yet, that’s all.
Under Sejong, Korea had their golden age. They were certainly blessed with a large amount of technology diffusion from the Mongols during the Yuan Dynasty. The Chinese were not so willing to share. Also, as the Yuan dynasty crumbled, I am sure you are aware of how a Korean stole the secret to gunpowder. There was certainly a fair amount of innovation but not much in the way of invention. Perhaps there needs to be a better way to model innovation in Civ games as Korea would certainly get a bonus for it, IMHO.
However, this golden age quickly faded because the Neo-Confuscianists were not interested in scientific discovery or innovation. Sejong was a remarkable leader as much for his forward thinking as he was for being an exception to the rule. His formulation of Hangul (borrowing from the brilliant invention by Phags Pa and adapting it for Korean) was rejected by the Yangban scholarly elite and then outright banned by Korean kings within about 50 years of Sejong’s death. It was not widely used until after Japan freed Korea from China in 1895.
Korea then stagnated very badly for the rest of the Joseon Dynasty period and its isolationism crippled it. Only within the last 30 years or so has Korea contributed scientifically to the world in any meaningful fashion.
So, for a vast majority of its history, Korea has not been scientifically prominent. This is my point and why I say that making Korea a scientific powerhouse is ahistorical.
As to your suggestions regarding Korea getting faith/diplomatic bonuses, I wholeheartedly agree. I would say that Korea should also get cultural and loyalty bonuses. There is a lot of interesting things they could do.
As it stands now, a lot of people are going to hate Korea in Civ VI. Korea will constantly be leading in tech (the AI knows how to do this, it would seem) and will be sending snide remarks reminding you of that. So, people will be looking to wipe out the tech leader (kill the snake when it is young) rather than engaging with it. I think Korea could have been really fun as an AI Civ with diplomatic abilities but now that will not be the case. I do hope that modders will be able to create a more interesting Korea. Let’s hope.
As it stands now, a lot of people are going to hate Korea in Civ VI. Korea will constantly be leading in tech (the AI knows how to do this, it would seem) and will be sending snide remarks reminding you of that. So, people will be looking to wipe out the tech leader (kill the snake when it is young) rather than engaging with it. I think Korea could have been really fun as an AI Civ with diplomatic abilities but now that will not be the case. I do hope that modders will be able to create a more interesting Korea. Let’s hope.
What you mean is that you will be sending snide remarks to the AI when you play as Korea
What you mean is that you will be sending snide remarks to the AI when you play as Korea
Well, I think we all say snide remarks to the AI when we are playing, don’t we?
I just bemoan the fact that Seondeok is going to descend to Pedro levels of irritation very quickly.
As for playing Korea, I suppose I will give it a go sometime. I do like their music.
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Everyone is complaining here because they can't put a day off the 8th or 9th or because they'll have to struggle how to download it the morning to be able to play it the night...
Me, I'm a victim of circumstances. I move on tomorrow in my new flat and, thanks to internet orperators, I will be without internet during approximatively two weeks. Yes, do the maths : I'll have to wait nearly an entire week before I will be able to only download the game ! Maybe I could counter it by seeking free wifi, hacking wifi of my neighbors or using my phone... But I'll have to find again my wiki key, and, with the packages and all, God only know were it is.
So, while I'm happy to become a landowner and have finally my own flat, I'm a little upset that'll delay my ability to crush the world with my stroopwaffel
Me, I'm a victim of circumstances. I move on tomorrow in my new flat and, thanks to internet orperators, I will be without internet during approximatively two weeks. Yes, do the maths : I'll have to wait nearly an entire week before I will be able to only download the game ! Maybe I could counter it by seeking free wifi, hacking wifi of my neighbors or using my phone... But I'll have to find again my wiki key, and, with the packages and all, God only know were it is.
So, while I'm happy to become a landowner and have finally my own flat, I'm a little upset that'll delay my ability to crush the world with my stroopwaffel
No friends or family you can leech some bandwith from? I think I would get very creative in your situation...
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Well, my family live in anothers cities, and I do not play on a laptop, but a fix computer, so wandering around the town with my machine is not necessarely what I want to do, especially since I do not own a car yet. Unless using the connexion from my phone or patiently download with some free wifi I can grab here and there, I'm out of options. For the moment. As an engineer, I must find a turnaround...
darkace77450
Emperor
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Sounds like a great scientific alliance partner to me.
Ondolindë
Emperor
I don't remember where I read and heard this a thousand times, but it might be pertinent: "Necessity is the mother of all inventions."
(The hats are still around: I say Christmas until July!) So, you go get your much needed WiFi with your engineer knowledge and skills. 
I would go for the neighbors WiFi. We are counting on you!
DeutschDachs
Emperor
I think what I might be most excited for in Rise and Fall is the fix to Civ start locations... I love that they gave us the restart button but I'm getting tired of using it when I have 3 Civs capitals surrounding my own and 6/8 Civs on my continent
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pgm123
Emperor
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As it stands now, a lot of people are going to hate Korea in Civ VI. Korea will constantly be leading in tech (the AI knows how to do this, it would seem) and will be sending snide remarks reminding you of that. So, people will be looking to wipe out the tech leader (kill the snake when it is young) rather than engaging with it. I think Korea could have been really fun as an AI Civ with diplomatic abilities but now that will not be the case. I do hope that modders will be able to create a more interesting Korea. Let’s hope.
Agreed. I hate Sumer's tech advances and I don't think they're set up as well in that regard. At least Korea won't get War Carts, though.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
Them are some Andre the Giant hands.
SammyKhalifa
Deity
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what's the guy on the right holding?
ferretbacon
Obsessor
I think it's for spotting. Don't know what it's called though. Sniper teams are usually a two man operation: one has the rifle, the other spots.
Edit: like this image.
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