Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[jlvfr]

60 catapults.

About this... my "gun line" right now consists of 42 balistas: 10 in Sicily, 8 in 4 border stacks on mountain passes, 4 in the city that borders the balcans, 4 in backup stack, right behind the "attack" stack and 12 in my "attack" stack... And catapults are 11 turns away

It's what's been keeping me alive, really. Without the artillery to soften up cities and enemy stacks and pre-bombard enemy attacks... brrrrrr

 

[First]

In most of my games I never build a single siege weapon and instead I solely use funditors.

 

[Stazro]

Stazro : Against Persia, I always follow the same war pattern :
1 - one war of unit attrition during the first century bc where I take only Ninive and Ctesiphon or so.

After this war, Persia will begin to regularly send Mesopotamian Bellatores at your cities, which is a good thing, since these units are very often used to attack right away. So instead of hoarding units and increasing his power very fast, the growth is actually subdued by the creation of those HN units as they are destroyed fairly regularly.

2 - One real war after I've finished all the normal conquests (Gaul, Britain, couple of Germanic cities, Dacia) which normally happens around 200 ad (which is perfect timing for the Germanics and Huns are still no big threat by this time as they do not yet have any unit spawning wonder.) In that war, the crucial one, I begin normally by letting Persia's offensive unit attack me and be killed and, when he's naked, I charge forward and take at least Bassora, Susa, Hamadan and Siraf. It doesn't take that long because, by then, Persia doesn't have an army anymore and it's just a matter of patience. Bombard, hit point attrition and using elite eques legionnarius who will in most cases retreat when they reach 1 hp, all in order to hurt as much as possible the Praesidium Parthicum. The time it takes is reasonable. Perhaps, if I remember correctly, 4-5 turns of bombard skirmish for cities with 1 Praesidium Parthicum and 8-10 turns for cities with 2.

When you have taken those cities, you can make peace and get 1 or 2 (if you don't houserule against that in your game) and Persia is essentially broken. And it is not dangerous to have your whole army there if, like I mentioned, you're fresh out of a war with Germanics and they don't have their uber units yet.

3 - Then, later, after another unit attrition war against Germania, (no set date as it varies too much, can be in 350 or in 450) you can go back to Persia and finish the job by taking Ecbatana, Ispahan, Rhagae, Tara... Using the same pattern, it is still long, but very much doable. The only impossible to conquer city is Persepolis : 3 uber defenders make it impossible, unless you have a lot of time and something like 60 catapults.

As it afterwards destroy any threat in the east and free all your units for the vital fights against the Germanics and Huns, it is well worth the trouble and I heartily recommend it to all players.

I'll think about it. Before the new defencive units were integrated i always took Persia, but i have been a bit discouraged by them.

About this... my "gun line" right now consists of 42 balistas: 10 in Sicily, 8 in 4 border stacks on mountain passes, 4 in the city that borders the balcans, 4 in backup stack, right behind the "attack" stack and 12 in my "attack" stack... And catapults are 11 turns away

It's what's been keeping me alive, really. Without the artillery to soften up cities and enemy stacks and pre-bombard enemy attacks... brrrrrr

That's a respectable force. What is the state of your empire, i mean how far have you expanded?

In most of my games I never build a single siege weapon and instead I solely use funditors.

Funditores are good because they can move and fire in one turn, but they are to weak for really tough defenders and in my opinion you can't have enough of them, because you get them only on the islands. And they don't have deadly bombardment.

 

[jlvfr]

That's a respectable force. What is the state of your empire, i mean how far have you expanded?

Not much. I have the Iberian Peninsula (except for the cartahginian section) and most of Gaul, (and 2 cities in sicily) but that's it

So, yeah, a high slice of my budget goes into the artillery...

 

[Christophoros]

About this... my "gun line" right now consists of 42 balistas: 10 in Sicily, 8 in 4 border stacks on mountain passes, 4 in the city that borders the balcans, 4 in backup stack, right behind the "attack" stack and 12 in my "attack" stack... And catapults are 11 turns away

It's what's been keeping me alive, really. Without the artillery to soften up cities and enemy stacks and pre-bombard enemy attacks... brrrrrr

It is nice, but you can't upgrade ballisti to catapult and I doubt ballisti are strong enough to inflict enough damage on Praesidium Parthicum. But for the rest of the game it is certainly very well, although a bit costly in my opinion. Personally, I normally keep about 40 artillery units in my army because of a simple calculation : it takes only one legio or "cavalry" unit to kill an enemy unit, but it takes many artillery to do the same. So while artillery is vital for city conquest, once you don't have any more cities to conquer, they are more liable and lose a great deal of usefulness.

And First : I think it is a very dangerous idea : Funditores, like Stazro said, are useful because of the move-fire in a single turn, but they really lack the firepower to destroy Oppidium and Vallus, not to mention hurting some of the stronger units.

 

[Christophoros]

This is a long list of thoughts, suggestions and ideas should there be another patch. I mainly argue along two lines of thought, history and game balance. I know how difficult it is to preserve the two in relation to one another, so for all ideas henceforth I will write whether they are about “his” or “gb”. This is a long list, so please bear with me. Of course, I would like as many people as possible throwing in their ideas and debating, so please participate.

- War weariness should not be a bother to Roma after the transformation of the army represented by Marius Reforms. Roma was always at war on one theater or another and most people couldn’t care less as long as the fighting was far away. HIS

- Christian Principate government is still worthless and should be changed. Like I argued some pages back, if by the time it comes around you are at peace and with a large empire, the last thing you want is a civil war that will severely hurt your economy and then a government with high unit support cost which will hurt your economy even more. And if you are at war, the high war weariness will make it worthless. So in both cases, it is useless. GB

- Roads should give more movement, perhaps 8. I think the Roman system of roads was famous for its efficiency and that should be represented somehow. 6 is not enough and does not provide a sufficient advantage compared to so many AI units with a move of 2 who ignore terrain penalties. HIS

- Triumphus should be renamed. The concept is sound, but the ceremony could only take place in Roma, so it is very weird to build a “Triumphus” in Carthago. It should be replaced with an identical improvement, rules-wise, but with a different name. HIS

- Crisis of the Third Century and Opus Imperator-Soldati should be made obsolete by Diocletian’s Reforms, as is accession to power effectively ended the Crisis. HIS

- Portus Ostiae should become obsolete with either the Conversion of Constantine or the 325 ad tech, while granaries should continue to become obsolete with Commodus. This is to better reflect history, as it was indeed around 320-330 that Ostiae fell into complete disuse. HIS

I will, in a further post address the issues concerning the units. Thank you

 

[jlvfr]

It is nice, but you can't upgrade ballisti to catapult and I doubt ballisti are strong enough to inflict enough damage on Praesidium Parthicum.

I know, so as soon as I set up cities to build catapults (5-10, I think) I'll dismiss part of the balistas on those cities to speed up their construction.

 

[Christophoros]

Now, about units :

- Eques Alarius Celticus and Eques Alarius Germanicus should be stronger. As they both cost support, it is very bizarre for them to be vastly inferior to the corresponding AI units. They are, after all, the same force, only fighting on different sides. HIS

- Commitatenses (cavalry one) and Cataphractus should be stronger, as they represent the main offensive thrust of Roman might after 376 onwards and should have a better chance to attack an incursor and win. GB

- Legio Caesaris should be stronger and it should not have a 2 hp penalty. We’re talking about one of the greatest generals of the history of the Western world, so it should be represented. HIS

- Catapults should be available earlier, as we know they were used by Caesar and in fact much earlier. HIS

- Historically speaking, Greek Hoplitae should be inferior to Roman Legio. The latter were able to outmaneuver Hoplitae whenever they met and this is not really represented by the stats : same move, same defense, a very slightly better attack for the legio (1), but the Antigonidae even have more HP. HIS

- Roman Eques Numidicus should be able to cross deserts. This would not destroy balance as they would never be available in sufficient numbers to take Numidia’s cities, but it would be a nice historic touch. HIS

- Piratae could become HN units, just like the pirate ships. I would make more sense than to have them working for Illyria and Crete. And they would then be more dangerous. GB

- Dromon should be vastly superior to anything the AI could muster. These ships dominated the Eastern Med for many centuries and could destroy scores of enemies. Maybe a 8att 5 def with more HP. HIS

- Auxiliae Palatina should be stronger on defense. It is the only purely defensive unit in the game which must be supported, and that should count for something. As the game stands, There’s not a lot of incentive to building these. GB

- Speculator is a nice idea, but very underpowered. Even though it has the right traits : HN, Stealth, Invisible, its actual stats are so low that you are not going to do much with them. It should definitely be stronger. GB

I'm done for now. Reactions ?

 

[pinktilapia]

We need Blitz

If I was making another patch, I would make the game even harder, seeing how you guys speak of invading Parthia, and the exploits that are still left in the game. You mostly want to make RFRE easier.

Many of your points are nonetheless legitimate, but I wouldn't touch those that can really affect game balance, like war weariness and speed on roads. Take the Trimphus like a ceremony in Rome and a monument in the given city (a triumphal arc, that was widespread accross the empire's cities).

 

[Stazro]

We need Blitz

If I was making another patch, I would make the game even harder, seeing how you guys speak of invading Parthia, and the exploits that are still left in the game. You mostly want to make RFRE easier.

Many of your points are nonetheless legitimate, but I wouldn't touch those that can really affect game balance, like war weariness and speed on roads. Take the Trimphus like a ceremony in Rome and a monument in the given city (a triumphal arc, that was widespread accross the empire's cities).

Well, under this circumstances i'm not going to conquer Persia, maybe i'll try to take Mesopotamia some time, like Traian.

 

[jlvfr]

Something wrong with the tutorials? Everytime I click on the 2 links I get missing-page/link problems...

 

[Stazro]

They are linked to "http://http://..."
There should be only one.

 

[jlvfr]

There should be only one.

Where have I seen that before?...


Thanks, completely missed it

 

[jlvfr]

Omg... I've re-declared war on Gaul and each turn is taking 20mn!

 

[pinktilapia]

They are linked to "http://http://..."
There should be only one.

oups...fixed

 

[Christophoros]

We need Blitz

If I was making another patch, I would make the game even harder, seeing how you guys speak of invading Parthia, and the exploits that are still left in the game. You mostly want to make RFRE easier.

Many of your points are nonetheless legitimate, but I wouldn't touch those that can really affect game balance, like war weariness and speed on roads. Take the Trimphus like a ceremony in Rome and a monument in the given city (a triumphal arc, that was widespread accross the empire's cities).

Yes, I know that some points would make the game easier, which is why, when I argue from a historical basis, it is more an idea than a concrete proposal for change.

However, some points are there not to make the game easier (making the Eques Alarius Germanicus stronger) but to ensure that all the possible units are in fact used by the player. I, personally, never use that unit as it costs support and, by the time you get it, it is heavily outgunned. Same for the Eques Alarius Celticus, who I almost never use because of the low power/cost ratio. Others are mostly about flavor, like the triumphus or Portus Ostiae. But on these I would really like to see the people's opinion.

Still others would make the game harder, like the piratae becoming a HN unit.

Also, if Pinktilapia seeks someone, I offer my services for the patch, not on account of my wishes and suggestions, but based on the consensus of the boards.

 

[jlvfr]

If I was making another patch, I would make the game even harder

Wanna make it harder? Try my version of "fog-of-war": don't look at the screen when the PC is playing it's side!

 

[pinktilapia]

Ok Christophoros, it is a tremendous task but if you really have the commitment, I am glad to have you preparing the patch.
First thing to do would be to dig in all the posts made recently (mostly by you and a couple of other posters I think) and prepare a list of suggested content. We can then see what is kept and what isn't
I have no Civ3 installed, so I won't be able to check your changes. However, I can help with technicalities if required (and if I still remember how to mod, it has been a long time!)
@jlvfr - I hope you unflagged the option called something like "see enemy animation" because otherwise, turns will last forever indeed!

 

[Anglophile]

The early game is ridiculously hard now (accepting that I am playing an obsolete version on Emperor); if I hadn't severely tweaked the biq, I would have been at least 100 turns behind the timeline at this point. I am now in the 'middle game', which is pretty easy. Not sure if that is because of the Golden Age thingie or whether the biq has been overtweaked for this period. My Golden Age ends in a turn or two, so I will have a better feel then. That said, the Parthians are a very competitive empire, especially given that they swallowed most of Armenia and Galatia. I took most of their cities between (what I think are) the Tigris and Euphrates in one turn but the Persians retook Seleucia quickly, threatened Babylon, held onto Melitene (causing my army to retreat by bringing up 100 of the good Hippotoxotae) and Amida and breaking through the first and second fortress lines defending Dioscurias. I also had nothing to stop 100 Hippotoxotae without stripping every other Roman army in the region. They are the only empire that I have run into so far that is prepared to take heavy losses to breach a defensive line. By the way, they declared war on me when my main army was in Dacia, if only briefly as the Dacians offered no coherent resistance. It is 52 AD, I have just started Philosopher on the Throne and my Empire is close to the Trajan limit (and the next war, soon, vs Persia will get me there). But beyond that I do not intend to go, so whether I can conquer Persia is moot as I won't try.

I also plan to greatly slow my R&D to get it back into line with the 'clock' in the background. Not sure how I got so far ahead as the Triumvirate was essentially right on as was Augustus.

Once the 2nd Persian War is finished, it will be a pretty quiet time until the barbarian hordes arrive in a few centuries.

The greatest weakness in the mod (and this is the game, not the mod) is the enemy AI. Nearly every unit is better - or much better - on offense than defense but the AI (except the Persians and Pergamum as well, so far) avoids attacking strong stacks. It took me two turns to take Salamis because the AI had over 50 units defending it. 40+ of those units were mostly those 2 HP 6/2/2 horse guys. 40 attacks from them would have damaged my attacking army much more than leaving them to defend, but defend is what they did. I assume the barbarian hordes will attack everything in site because the Rhine and Danube are going to be very well defended indeed by the time they show up.

 

[jlvfr]

@jlvfr - I hope you unflagged the option called something like "see enemy animation" because otherwise, turns will last forever indeed!

I did! But the game is now at 40mn between turns!