Rise and Rule for Civ3:Conquests

[Pfeffersack]

(...)
The government Social Democracy has the flag "requires maintenance" not set. This means no building upkeep. It ridiculously overpowers this government (personal opinion) and I don't think this is intentional.
(...)

My first reaction was like yours (I made a pen and paper table for the governments before starting to play the final version of the mod).As I noticed SocDem has no upceep for buildings, I thought this must be an unintenional "type" error in the editor.I was going to report it as bug as I notice the civilopedia entry(!) says the following "(...) A large military is very expensive under Social Democracy, but this is offset by no maintenance costs; (...)" and there is even a note under the listed stats.So I don't think it is unintentional.
If it is owerprowered is of course another question.I agree from point of stats and compared to Federalism/Const.Mon. May be some finetuning would be good, but I would like to stay the idea of a maintenance-free government.To my surprise even the AI handles it quite well; under condition of heavy WW they are even able to get out of it again (which was not sure, as there was the same problem with the original feudalism in Conquests).

(...)
Another note about government settings in general: I tested this a little and think that the AI thinks that nuisance and minimal corruption is better than communal. This might even be true in Vanilla and PTW, however since Conquests communal corruption is very very strong for large empires. If my observations were correct about AI preferences (not sure, no rigorous testing), you might want to consider this if you want to fine tune some government settings later on (to minimize the human advantage).
(...)

Yes, thats true - in general.But as I already stated above most of the governments are real good balanced in RAR...I saw the AI using all governments except Abs. Mon, Thocracy and Feud. Mon. and think they would even use the two latter ones in extrem situations, so the only things to consider slight changes are Abs. Mon. and perhaps Soc.Dem IMO, but here is more feedback needed.Every game is different, so the AI uses different Governments - I was quite surprised they finally even use Communism...

I made the mistake in my last game of waiting to switch out of Communism to Social Democracy until I finished the Echelon and 5-years plan... Boy was I dispointed to find out that govt-specific wonders disappear as soon as you switch governments. I sacrificed a SGL and prob about 10 turns for that. That was a HUGE shield investment down the drain.
(...)

They do not exactly disappear - they just stop working.If you ever intend to sqitch back, they would take up there work again/appear again.This is also the case with government specific buildings.

 

[Roland Johansen]

@Roland Johansen:
Tweaking the governments and the AI government choices especially is one of the most complicated parts of modding (and one of my favorites ).

I couldn't agree more.

* The AI likes: Tile bonus, Free Maintenance/Unit support, Corruption levels 1 and 2
* The AI doesn't care about: Rushing, Gov-specific improvements, Worker Speed, overall productivity, overall unit costs as long as it doesn't cause troubles, communal corruption (!)
* When WW or unit support hurts, the AI picks somewhat random one wartime Government available.
* Choices like FedRep or ConMon are simply random.
* The AI (being American by nature?) hates Communism . Other Communal Govs, even far inferior ones like Fundamentalism, are choosen quite frequently.

Hmm, you know a lot about it. But that doesn't surprise me, with all these different governments you added. According to the corruption article of Alexman, there's no difference between Problematic and Nuissance corruption, but I think that the AI does like Nuissance more.

It is good to hear that the AI uses lots of different governments.

On Soc Demo: The only error is that copy/paste mistake in the spreadsheet. Consider that other Govs have better GSI (ConMon, Com, even Demo),you have to research an optional late game tech, you have to face another 9 turns of Anrchy unless REL (at least, *I* would draw 9), and - most important - zero free units with a support cost of 5gpt per unit. Basically, if you tend to have something like 1 Worker + 1 Defender + 1 other unit (ship/ari/plane) per city, SocDem isn't that fancy...
But it is *THE* Government when you have no need for military any longer. Andthat is intended.

Ok, there was an error in the spreadsheet. I hadn't expected that and just wanted to help. I can follow your reasoning above but I disagree. The other 2 modern governments with tile bonus have the same upkeep per unit (4) and 2 free units in a metropolis which makes them spend at most 8 gold per city less on units. So a civilization that has a building upkeep of more than 8 per city will be better of in a social democracy. To make it even better, a social democracy has less corruption with the communal corruption. As these are all late game governments, a building upkeep of 8 or more per city is quite realistic in my empires at that date (not even considering the corruption advantages).
You do have a good point with the anarchy period. I don't know the tech tree by heart as I have only played to 730BC. The other modern, tile bonus governments are apparently available earlier which of course is a big advantage for those governments

I think it is just a matter of personal taste, but I think I'll use social democracy often (if I can live with the war weariness).

Yes, thats true - in general.But as I already stated above most of the governments are real good balanced in RAR...I saw the AI using all governments except Abs. Mon, Thocracy and Feud. Mon. and think they would even use the two latter ones in extrem situations, so the only things to consider slight changes are Abs. Mon. and perhaps Soc.Dem IMO, but here is more feedback needed.Every game is different, so the AI uses different Governments - I was quite surprised they finally even use Communism...

Sorry if I sound too negative, I really like your mod and the balance is really good. Everybody just has some preferences.

 

[Pfeffersack]

(...) Sorry if I sound too negative, I really like your mod and the balance is really good. Everybody just has some preferences.

No, you didn't Every constructive feedback is welcome...I only want to add that there are a lot exceptions to this tendence and that the AI handles the current goverments quite good, including communism.

(...) The other 2 modern governments with tile bonus have the same upkeep per unit (4) and 2 free units in a metropolis which makes them spend at most 8 gold per city less on units. So a civilization that has a building upkeep of more than 8 per city will be better of in a social democracy. To make it even better, a social democracy has less corruption with the communal corruption. As these are all late game governments, a building upkeep of 8 or more per city is quite realistic in my empires at that date (not even considering the corruption advantages) (...)

Yes, the unit upkeep is 4 indeed and I agree, that thats the main point what makes it a bit overpowered, IMO.I think setting it to 5 (as it is seems be intended) would be a good idea.

(...) According to the corruption article of Alexman, there's no difference between Problematic and Nuissance corruption, but I think that the AI does like Nuissance more.(...)

Hmm, didn't know that before.I have read the pasage of his article, and you are completly right for distance corruption.However, it is slightly different for rank corruption, which groups minimal/nuissance, problematic/rampant and communal corruption.This might be the reason for the slight AI leaning towards nuissance.

 

[zappara]

BTW, is someone going to update the civilopedia or do I have to do it by myself? In my game's civilopedia I've fixed government info, fixed some bugs and added civilopedia for several topics that didn't have info... Just wanted to know if I should continue to do this by myself to get it work correctly or is it going to be updated soon..? I use Civilopedia a lot because there's so much new things in RAR and you'll have to plan really carefully what to build and when (Emperor level).

 

[Pfeffersack]

The Civilopedia will be updated and will be hopefully complete and without serious errors someday, but didn't expect this to be soon.It is an incredible amount of work.
At the moment, use the spreadsheet or have the editor opened in the back.It is annoying, I know, but at the moment we all have to live with it...

 

[Roland Johansen]

Hmm, didn't know that before.I have read the pasage of his article, and you are completly right for distance corruption.However, it is slightly different for rank corruption, which groups minimal/nuissance, problematic/rampant and communal corruption.This might be the reason for the slight AI leaning towards nuissance.

My memory failed me here. I really thought there was no difference but you're correct there is still a difference in rank corruption (be it small).

 

[zappara]

The Civilopedia will be updated and will be hopefully complete and without serious errors someday, but didn't expect this to be soon.It is an incredible amount of work.
At the moment, use the spreadsheet or have the editor opened in the back.It is annoying, I know, but at the moment we all have to live with it...

Ok. Then I'll continue to do the fixes myself...

Do you happen to know if anyone has ever made icons for Water Mill, Shipyard, Crystal Palace, War Games Facility, Secret Police HQ, The Conglomerate, Triumph of People, Customs House, Philosopher's School and Special Warfare Center -buildings? I found icons for all the others that were missing and added them to the game and I would also like to add those last ones. Science advisor screens are more useful when there aren't those question marks so I try to get rid of them.

 

[WildWeazel]

Another note about government settings in general: I tested this a little and think that the AI thinks that nuisance and minimal corruption is better than communal. This might even be true in Vanilla and PTW, however since Conquests communal corruption is very very strong for large empires.

Huh? I thought communal IS worse....

 

[Pfeffersack]

Huh? I thought communal IS worse....

It depends mainly on the size and structure of a civilization...the bigger and more widespread an empire is the better communal gets.For very small empires it is worst, for mid-size ones it is somewhere between nuisance and problematic and for widespread and huge empires communal is the best.

 

[Ronnoc]

Couple of things:

1. I captured a prize ship with an Admiral of the Fleet. I sent the prize ship to a port city and disbanded it, per civpedia, to add shields to the construction of a wonder I just started to correspond with the disbanding of the prize ship, but there was no shield gain.

2. I also built the crystal palace, but in the cities there is no assembly plant listed.

3. Some have mentioned that the AI is not very aggressive. I have done no provocation of the AI and yet AIs I am trading with an are polite, suddenly have attacked, and in fact have been in near constant warfare. I have a city a near a choke point, but not controlling it, one tile of hills surrounded by marsh. (I make most units wheeled and cannot go thourgh marsh, jungle, mountains). I am now in the Industrial era and this has been under constant attack for a couple hundred years. I constantly face multiple stacks of attackers, 20-30 at a time. Were it not for massive quantities of arty, supported by ships, they would have overrun the city long ago, but as it is I chew them up pretty well so that their strength is sapped.

4. I have also had the AI more frequently transport type vessels and trying to land troops in other places, which I most definitely applaud, but they are not doing it with enough troops and no naval escorts.

5. I love the mod and am really having a lot of fun with it. Thanks guys!!!

 

[jimmygeo]

I've seen this problem before, it's caused by not having Conquests updated to patch 1.22
Check your version on the main menu when you just start the game.

Ooooooh! I'm SO embarassed! Yes, I had reinstalled C3C to try and get another scenario to run and forgot to re-apply the v. 1.22 patch. All's well now

Thanks!

jimmygeo

 

[Pfeffersack]

Couple of things:

1. I captured a prize ship with an Admiral of the Fleet. I sent the prize ship to a port city and disbanded it, per civpedia, to add shields to the construction of a wonder I just started to correspond with the disbanding of the prize ship, but there was no shield gain.

2. I also built the crystal palace, but in the cities there is no assembly plant listed.

3. Some have mentioned that the AI is not very aggressive. I have done no provocation of the AI and yet AIs I am trading with an are polite, suddenly have attacked, and in fact have been in near constant warfare. I have a city a near a choke point, but not controlling it, one tile of hills surrounded by marsh. (I make most units wheeled and cannot go thourgh marsh, jungle, mountains). I am now in the Industrial era and this has been under constant attack for a couple hundred years. I constantly face multiple stacks of attackers, 20-30 at a time. Were it not for massive quantities of arty, supported by ships, they would have overrun the city long ago, but as it is I chew them up pretty well so that their strength is sapped.

4. I have also had the AI more frequently transport type vessels and trying to land troops in other places, which I most definitely applaud, but they are not doing it with enough troops and no naval escorts.

5. I love the mod and am really having a lot of fun with it. Thanks guys!!!

1. You cannot rush wonders, not with cash/population/disbanding.
2. Sorry, no idea what could be the reason.
3. It just happens; in normal civ, in RaR, in every other mod.Reason is most of the time an insufficient military force...or a choke point.Even if it was not a true choke point, it could be the reason for this.
4. AI naval invasions...the AI is weak in such things and the problem is mainly coded in AI behaviour; nevertheless we will see what we can do against it
5. Nice to hear

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Ok. Then I'll continue to do the fixes myself...

Do you happen to know if anyone has ever made icons for Water Mill, Shipyard, Crystal Palace, War Games Facility, Secret Police HQ, The Conglomerate, Triumph of People, Customs House, Philosopher's School and Special Warfare Center -buildings? I found icons for all the others that were missing and added them to the game and I would also like to add those last ones. Science advisor screens are more useful when there aren't those question marks so I try to get rid of them.

Would you be willing to send those changes to the DYP Dev. team? That would reduce the work for whoever will update it in the future plus give the rest of us a less patchwork pedia.

 

[Ronnoc]

The default English color should be red (I know I can change it) it is just not right to see British line infantry or rifleman in orange. Especially, the rifleman, they look they are right out of Rourke's Drift.

 

[tonevdik]

The link is in the first post on the first page of this thread.It might take time to get the download started and the download is huge, but there are also some mirrors (to find them use the link to the download section of the DyP website; the link to it can be also found in the first post).

Tank you! Do you have any maps for RR mod?

 

[Lachlan]

You should take RR Owain's World

 

[DBear]

some more minor glitches I noticed:

Marxism is flagged as an elective tech. However, it is a prereq for Unionization, which is a required tech. Therefore, Marxism cannot be elective.

What do I need to upgrade ships? I have some ancient ships I would like to get oceanworthy and I can't seem to upgrade them even when I have harbors and ports. I couldn't find anything in the civopedia about upgrades

And another question: How do I play a set map, like Rhye's Earth Map w/RoR resources, with this mod? When I launched, it gave me a random map.

 

[ManOfMiracles]

In an earlier post Doc Ts mentioned several units can perform some worker actions. Is the Hardy Pioneer one of them? While having road-building ability is a nice bonus, I honestly don't know why I would ever want to use a Hardy Pioneer to build an outpost or automate to build trade network.

 

[Turner]

The only thing I would use it for is to road the settler to a new city. Saves having to build a worker to do that. Not necessarily faster, but maybe a bit easier.

 

[Hygro]

but strategically you are probably better off placing the city some 10 or more turns sooner than building yourself a road.

I still like the option, however.