Rise and Rule for Civ3:Conquests

[sanabas]

Yeah, Polynesia are seafaring & expansionist. Helps a bit with AA techs and resources.

 

[stachnie]

I wonder why most of troop-building SW's like Training Camp have upkeep cost, sometimes quite high like for the General Staff School (and it does not seem to vanish after the SW is obsolete). In my games they expire too soon to produce more than 2-3 troops so unless I have a MGL at hand, I do not waste shields to build them. What is even stranger: some of SW's that do not expire and produce the most advanced troops (War Games Facility and Special Warfare Center) have no upkeep at all.

For similar reasons (apart from upkeep) Knight Templar is the worst GW and I build it only as a result of a wonder cascade. It expires too soon and these Templars are not upgradeable.


Best regards,

Slawomir Stachniewicz.

 

[Pfeffersack]

You have a point here and we are planning to change that, especially because those wonders do not produce culture anymore after expiring.

 

[YNCS]

I believe I've found a minor glitch. I just discovered Emancipation, and all slave markets and the GW Slave Trade became obsolete. Now I can build the GW Emancipation Proclamation, which doubles unhappiness caused by slave markets. But the slave markets have just gone away.

 

[mikehunt]

last night I bombarded a city with a Admiral of the Line (or whatever that wonder generated frigate like ship is called) and it killed the defending ground unit and created a prize ship
thought it was funny to get a prize ship from a ground unit

 

[Big J Money]

I would really like to try this mod, but looking at it, there are a few reasons why I'm not sure I'll like it:

1. Some of the resources added seem redundant; ie. fruit, when you already gain 1 food from plains, it seems to me that fruit is already included in the planting?

2. There seem to be some serious gameplay changes, but I can't quite seem to get a grasp on all of them at once to tell if they are well-balanced or not; ie. I noticed a building that scientific civs can build very cheaply that increases research by 50% in the city! Is that balanced?

Also, this isn't a big deal to me, but two other observations: none of the civilizations have had their Tribe type changed (Greece is still commercial and scientific, for example), which I figured would be something that someone would want to tamper with, and none of the new UUs in the game use the sneak attack ability! I was hoping someone would make a new unit that used that really cool ability.

So, if I install this, can I get regular Civ3 back if I don't enjoy it? I'd like to try it....


=$= Big J Money =$=

Edit: ARGH! I don't know if this MOD will be playable for me. It looks as though my favorite civ, the Incas, has been totally destroyed! Their once cheap scout attack unit, used for gaining a strong exploration start, has been changed to an expensive military unit! If there is any way the Chasqui scout can be brought back, then I think I would like this MOD; otherwise, my favorite strategy with my favorite civ has been removed! Of all the d*** luck.

 

[mikehunt]

installing this shouldn't affect normal civ3, as you load this through the civ content choice on the main menu and it installs to it's own subfolder and doesn't overwrite the existing civ3 files

 

[Big J Money]

Man, the more I look at this mod, the more I'm saddened about the change to the Incas. I am certainly going to install the mod and play it some, but without my Incas, it's not going to be the same I'm especially fond of some of the fundamental combat changes like Lethal Bombard on many units, and the whole Mounted Archer vs. Mounted Knight dynamic. Now the Keshik makes a bit more sense than it did before.

Please, please, please consider my request to change the Incas back to having an early scout unit! At least, if nothing else, please tell me for the love of all things WHY the Incan UU was changed so much.

Thanks,

=$=

 

[Pfeffersack]

I believe I've found a minor glitch. I just discovered Emancipation, and all slave markets and the GW Slave Trade became obsolete. Now I can build the GW Emancipation Proclamation, which doubles unhappiness caused by slave markets. But the slave markets have just gone away.

Yes, you can avoid the negative effect if you sell all of your manual built slavemarkets. However, if you have build the great Slavetrade wonder, you will experience the doubled unhappiness for the rest of the game, because the Slavetrade Wonder and the "virtual" slavemarkets of the wonder will be still in place (although they don't have a positive effect on production anymore).You can of course destroy the wonder city, but thats a high price for getting rid of it.

last night I bombarded a city with a Admiral of the Line (or whatever that wonder generated frigate like ship is called) and it killed the defending ground unit and created a prize ship thought it was funny to get a prize ship from a ground unit

I have noted that earlier and put it on the list.We are not satisfied with how the enslave option (in combination with lethal landbombrdment) plays out here, however there is sadly no perfect solution.Removing lethal land bombardment would take away the speciality of the AoF and removing enslavement would be quite unrealistic for a ship of that age.

I would really like to try this mod, but looking at it, there are a few reasons why I'm not sure I'll like it:

1. Some of the resources added seem redundant; ie. fruit, when you already gain 1 food from plains, it seems to me that fruit is already included in the planting?

2. There seem to be some serious gameplay changes, but I can't quite seem to get a grasp on all of them at once to tell if they are well-balanced or not; ie. I noticed a building that scientific civs can build very cheaply that increases research by 50% in the city! Is that balanced?

Also, this isn't a big deal to me, but two other observations: none of the civilizations have had their Tribe type changed (Greece is still commercial and scientific, for example), which I figured would be something that someone would want to tamper with, and none of the new UUs in the game use the sneak attack ability! I was hoping someone would make a new unit that used that really cool ability.

So, if I install this, can I get regular Civ3 back if I don't enjoy it? I'd like to try it....

=$= Big J Money =$=

1. It is debatable how realistic this ressource model it, but thats the way the CivIII engine implements ressources.The bonus of the ressource get added on the top of the base output and, if in place, the improvement output.In case of fruit (which gives 2 food and one commerce bonus, BTW) on plain:

1 (base plain) + 2 (fruit ressource) = 3 food

Under Chiefdom however, you suffer -1 food/shields/commerce if the tile output of one of those goods is 3 or more.So the plain with fruits would give 2 food here until you move to a government without the standard tile penalty.


2. Believe me, the mod has excellent balance.If you take in the preceeding DyPs for vanilla and PTW it is in development since years.Many changes were added and some removed again to improve balance.Some changes may seem drastic, but you will find that there are other options which are powerful, too.
Concerning traits, you will find that all the traits offer bigger advantages compared to standard epic Conquests.

About trait distribution, it isn't correct that there are no changes.Some civs have got new traits (Egypt is agricultural for example) and there is even a replaced UU.The problem with sneak attack is it is very powerful and can disturb balance quite easily.But we have planned to add more of those units in future, maybe we will add it also to some UUs.


Getting back to regular Civ isn't a problem...you will find the mod under "Civ Content" and you still have access to standard civ with "start new game".

 

[Pfeffersack]

Man, the more I look at this mod, the more I'm saddened about the change to the Incas. I am certainly going to install the mod and play it some, but without my Incas, it's not going to be the same I'm especially fond of some of the fundamental combat changes like Lethal Bombard on many units, and the whole Mounted Archer vs. Mounted Knight dynamic. Now the Keshik makes a bit more sense than it did before.

Please, please, please consider my request to change the Incas back to having an early scout unit! At least, if nothing else, please tell me for the love of all things WHY the Incan UU was changed so much.

Thanks,
=$=

The Incas have access to the standard RaR scout.The UU was changed, because many players don't like an ultra early scout as UU.Also their traits were changed (expansionist replaced with militaristic; probably to fit better with the new unit).I agree it is matter of taste (I'm not good enough in Inca history to comment which UU fits better, but both expansionist and militaristic can be justified), but sadly there is no way to make it perfect for everyone, sorry (and we have choosen the option which is probably liked by most players).You could give them expansionst back for your private version, which means they have access to the ranger, a better scout unit.You can of course mod in the Chasqui yourself too, but thats more work (you can use the regular civ unit page as reference for the correct settings; there shouldn't be a problem with the graphic files)

 

[Big J Money]

So, I have permission to edit this mod for personal use only? That is what I'd like to do. There is nothing better than the Incas; being a civ with both Agriculture and Expansion, PLUS a scout that is superior to all other tribe scouts. I think they were more intelligently designed than most of the original tribes. I can't see why any player at all would want to change that, but I certainly won't question opinion! I wonder if any of those players actually played the Incas, or just thought maybe they looked boring. As lousy as some of the military UUs are in Civ3, I think making non-military UUs for certain tribes is a very powerful thing; especially since every UU has a relevancy lifespan anyhow. What better way to make that short period of relevancy count than in the very beginning of the game? And it doesn't even require you going to war with another civ to take advantage of it!

As for the difficulty of modding this, would it be extremely difficult to simply put the Chasqui back in the game, and modify its combat values to reflect that of RaR? I've never made a mod before, so I'm not really sure where the mod information is stored, unless is stored on the map file itself.

Thanks for the reply,

=$=

 

[Bezhukov]

Not sure if you're working on 2.0 right now, but the best suggestion I have is to make early improvements become obsolete. I good rule of thumb would be that improvements would last two ages. I.e. forges become obsolete with Steel. This would give you a chance to use them to get factories built, but would cut down on late-game clutter and the super-city syndrome.

Another clutter-cutting idea, that would also enhance replayability, would be more resource requirements for improvements/wonders. Like requiring saltpeter to build labs. This could be calibrated by having some just require general access to the resource (like factories needing iron), and other more powerful effects available if the resource is within city bounds.

Also wouldn't mind seeing some zero-move high defense units to help prevent weak AI's getting run over so easily. Could even implement land-transports to move them around (Carts->Wagons->Trucks).

 

[bonscott]

Money,

Just a note on balance. I have played about a dozen RaR games now and I find this mod to be very balanced all around. Especially in the military values of units. It takes about 2 games to get used to everything I think.

As for the Inca's, everyone plays with different civs and has their favorites. In vanilla Conquests I tried Inca's once but hated them. I hate the expansionist trait as to me it's totally useless. But then that's just the way I play. I always chose a tribe with at least industrial as one trait. China, Maya and Ottomons were a favorite of mine, especially with their UU.

In RaR I have a totally different opinion because the balance is so great that industrial is not the end all be all trait it was in the epic game. I've been trying all kinds of different civs and lately I've been playing the Koreans. Scientific and Commercial. If you can survive to the middle ages you can really be an economic powerhouse and their UU rocks with leathal bombardment.

So really, it's just how you play. And I encourage you to try other civs outside the Inca's. It really enhances the game and opens eyes to strategies you may have never thought of. At least it has for me.

 

[Pfeffersack]

So, I have permission to edit this mod for personal use only? That is what I'd like to do. There is nothing better than the Incas; being a civ with both Agriculture and Expansion, PLUS a scout that is superior to all other tribe scouts. I think they were more intelligently designed than most of the original tribes. I can't see why any player at all would want to change that, but I certainly won't question opinion! I wonder if any of those players actually played the Incas, or just thought maybe they looked boring. As lousy as some of the military UUs are in Civ3, I think making non-military UUs for certain tribes is a very powerful thing; especially since every UU has a relevancy lifespan anyhow. What better way to make that short period of relevancy count than in the very beginning of the game? And it doesn't even require you going to war with another civ to take advantage of it!

As for the difficulty of modding this, would it be extremely difficult to simply put the Chasqui back in the game, and modify its combat values to reflect that of RaR? I've never made a mod before, so I'm not really sure where the mod information is stored, unless is stored on the map file itself.

Thanks for the reply,
=$=

Yes, you can mod in and out what ever you want I often do that, too...mostly because I want to test new ideas, but sometimes just because I think something is more fun.
Adding the Chasqui back isn't very difficult.First of all I would recommend going to the editor and simply open the rules of default (=standard) biq (you have to enable "customized rules first"). Choose the units section and scroll down to the Chasqui.Keep the page open, write the infomration down or try to note the things in your mind.Then open the RaR biq., go to units and choose the Inti warrior.Rename it to Chasqui, select the correct icon and edit all other settings to reflect the Chasqui value (some you can simply copy from epic Conquests, others may have to be altered to fit in RaR, upgrade or tech prequesite for example) .The only problematic thing is the Civilopedia entry, which is difficult to change.I would simply leave it as it is.
For balancing the stats with RaR...since we have the Ranger in the game, the Chasqui should be better in some way...you can add 1 attack and perhaps lower the hp-penalty to -1.

Not sure if you're working on 2.0 right now, but the best suggestion I have is to make early improvements become obsolete. I good rule of thumb would be that improvements would last two ages. I.e. forges become obsolete with Steel. This would give you a chance to use them to get factories built, but would cut down on late-game clutter and the super-city syndrome.

Another clutter-cutting idea, that would also enhance replayability, would be more resource requirements for improvements/wonders. Like requiring saltpeter to build labs. This could be calibrated by having some just require general access to the resource (like factories needing iron), and other more powerful effects available if the resource is within city bounds.

Also wouldn't mind seeing some zero-move high defense units to help prevent weak AI's getting run over so easily. Could even implement land-transports to move them around (Carts->Wagons->Trucks).

Not 2.0 yet, but a major patch is in the works.
I see the advantages of expiring improvements, however the are two problems.It would seriously affect game balance...tech costs and costs for improvemnts/wonders/units would have to be adjusted to keep in touch with lowered outputs.
But the even more serious problem is that the AI doesn't recognize the need to sell obsolete improvements to save maintenance (you can see that for worker housings and castles).More such buildings would create an advantage for the human palyer, not to speak of the effects on AI building behaviour.I'm almost sure it would hit there industrial capacity badly because the tend to build factory-style improvemnts only if they have a decent shield output.Obsoleted forges for example would have negative effects here.

Ressource requirements were in the mod in early DYP versions.Problem is again the AI, which isn't good at calculating the real value of such improved ressources.While that isn't too bad in case of wonders (AI is too fond of them anyway; however it would be easier for the human player to get them). it can have seriuos side effects for improvments (for example improvments which have other improvments as prequesite).It would make be contrary to the attempt to keep weak civs in the game, because it would cripple there economy.

Zero movement defend...yes, it would greatly improve defense for AI cities.
The question is how to get them in the game.Autoproduced? Than you would have to use an improvment, since a wonder would concentrate all of them in one city... Or manually? Then we have to deal with the best-buy strategy of the AI.It is hard to find a price/stats which makes the AI builds a certain unit, without making them built it solely.
Land Transports? Had that in earlier DyP versions, too, but it was removed, because it is another human-only thing.AI isn't be able to use it, since there is no AI land-transport-strategy flag.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I believe I've found a minor glitch. I just discovered Emancipation, and all slave markets and the GW Slave Trade became obsolete. Now I can build the GW Emancipation Proclamation, which doubles unhappiness caused by slave markets. But the slave markets have just gone away.

True, unlike Pfeffersack said the SMs will go away once the Wonder is obsolete with Emancipation, so no problems here; and you'd better sell your handbuilt ones anyway.
But: Don't forget you could capture the Proclamation wonder without learning the tech yourself ...


Inca: We didn't change their traits. MIL/IND Inca have been in DyP long before C3C was even developed...

Land Transports/Immobile units: Not only does the AI not use the transports, the immobile units may not have the 'load' flag anyway. The AI will load them on board of ships otherwise, and tries to disembark them...we've been there before, the game hangs at that point indefinitely. Also, in C3C there is no movement=0 anymore, you need to check the 'Immobile' flag, and that causes additional odd behavior (IIRC they stay in a city when it flips).

Requirements for improvements/wonders: I think we already have too many things requiring Incense. You're really in troubles without sometimes. OTOH, if a resource is only needed for a few imps (like Gold), I think it adds a lot of strategic thinking here. Saltpetre for Labs sounds good. And, we need to add Iron to Factories again, they don't require it in RaR (but unmodded).
A game balance problem is, though, that once a resource is required for a Wonder/Imp, it gets insanely expensive to trade for (just compare Iron and Horses in unmodded).

 

[sanabas]

A game balance problem is, though, that once a resource is required for a Wonder/Imp, it gets insanely expensive to trade for (just compare Iron and Horses in unmodded).

Equally big balance problem caused by resources being visible before they're required is that if the resource is not required for anything that's available, the AI assigns it no value. It's much more noticeable for later resources, like rubber and oil. If you don't happen to have them yourself, you can trade the turn before you get the first tech that requires the resource for units, and receive 20 turns of the resource (19 of which you can use) for a lump sum of 1 gold.

 

[Pfeffersack]

True, unlike Pfeffersack said the SMs will go away once the Wonder is obsolete with Emancipation, so no problems here; and you'd better sell your handbuilt ones anyway.But: Don't forget you could capture the Proclamation wonder without learning the tech yourself ...

But whats then the point about doubled unhappiness? In the moment the penalty kicks in, the slavmarkets are obsolete - the ones from the wonder simply disappear and the manually built ones can be (and will be, in case of the human player) sold immediately.So where is the unhappiness source? Or it is just a problem for the AI which doesn't sell its obsolete buildings...?

Inca: We didn't change their traits. MIL/IND Inca have been in DyP long before C3C was even developed... (...)

Ok, my fault

 

[sanabas]

But whats then the point about doubled unhappiness?

Because it's possible to have working slave markets and emancipation proclamation wonder by capturing the wonder and never researching emancipation.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Equally big balance problem caused by resources being visible before they're required is that if the resource is not required for anything that's available, the AI assigns it no value. It's much more noticeable for later resources, like rubber and oil. If you don't happen to have them yourself, you can trade the turn before you get the first tech that requires the resource for units, and receive 20 turns of the resource (19 of which you can use) for a lump sum of 1 gold.

Uh, that's absolutely realistic. Remember, neither kautchuk nor petroleum where worth more than a WM equivalant in the 19th century.
What could it be used for? Chewing Gums, and a horribly smelling lamp oil...

Of course, once someone invented a gasoline engine, and vulcanization, things changed drastically .

 

[Pfeffersack]

Because it's possible to have working slave markets and emancipation proclamation wonder by capturing the wonder and never researching emancipation.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.