Rise and Rule for Civ3:Conquests

[Bezhukov]

Yeah, I was just talking about, for instance, having 4 different UU's versions of Swordsmen, while there is no unique, say Man-at-Arms. It would be more interesting if more units had unique versions, and conversely, if each unit only had one unique counterpart.

I looked at the Impi. It's a mini-Coassack!

The thing that makes these units great (as well as improvements like Slave Market) is the trade-offs involved. Making these sorts decisions (and being given the option to make them) are what makes the game fun.

They also increase replay value, as does stuff like Statue of Zeus and Iron Works that you won't find in every game. I hope RandR development heads in this direction. The sheer quantity of options is fun, but it would be even more fun to restrict some of those options from game to game to increase variety.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Hm, let's see what we have:

1 Champ (Aztecs)
2 Archers (Babylon, Iros)
3 Spears (Greece, Carth, Ethopia)
1 Chariot (Egypt)
3 Swords (Rome, Celts, Siam)
2 Horse Archers (Mongols, Sioux)
1 Pike (Tibet)
2 MDI (Inca, Vikings)
4 Knights (Mali, Arabs, China, India)
1 Cavalier (Japan)
1 Explorer (Spain)
1 Cannon (Korea)
1 Arquebusier (France)
1 Cuir (Ottomans)
1 Dragoon (Russia)
1 Ship-of-the-Line (England)
1 Para (US)
1 Armor (Germany)

Special (since they come earlier, or are pretty different)
3 (Polynesia, Persia, Zulu)

Since UUs boosting useless units stay useless (we had Longbows and Hwacha as Crossbow replacements in DyP, and that IMHO sucked), we need to find more good basic units for UUs.
I always thought about Musketeers as Musketman replacement.
England would qualify for Rifles or Line Infantries ('Redcoats'), but that wouldn't contribute to diversity.
Then, we shouldn't try to be different just for the sake of being different, so Gallics, Legionaries, Nummies, Hoplites, Riders should stay.
For Mali and Arabs, Knight replacements are fitting extremely well. Same for Mongols and Sioux with Horse Archers.

Now, if someone could come up with a better UU for Siam, I'm open for any suggestions.
And maybe we could move the War Elephant to Elephant Training; this is an AA tech, but you can get to Knights at the same time.

 

[Bezhukov]

"Since UUs boosting useless units stay useless"

Or you could make those units less useless.

Why have useless units at all?

"We need to find more good basic units for UUs."

Agreed on this, however.

"England would qualify for Rifles or Line Infantries ('Redcoats'), but that wouldn't contribute to diversity."

Actually Man-o-War is a nice UU with its 4 RoF. I've used it extensively for city bombardment (more mobile than contemporary arty).

"Then, we shouldn't try to be different just for the sake of being different, so Gallics, Legionaries, Nummies, Hoplites, Riders should stay."

Nothing is so good it can't stand further improvement, but these are good enough that as to be low priority.

"For Mali and Arabs, Knight replacements are fitting extremely well. Same for Mongols and Sioux with Horse Archers."

I would disagree here. Both the Heavy Horse and the MW are boring compared to, say, the Cossack. Need more uniqueness.

"Now, if someone could come up with a better UU for Siam, I'm open for any suggestions."

I actually find the Siam UU more interesting, say, than the Sioux, in that it has uniquely high attack power for its era. Similar to the unmodded Immortal. Though that doesn't last terribly long.

"And maybe we could move the War Elephant to Elephant Training; this is an AA tech, but you can get to Knights at the same time."

Here's the kind of thing I have in mind: American UU -> Minuteman, Rifle, 5/5/1 ATAR, defensive bombard 10, 2 RoF. This gives you the 5 def you're looking for from a Rifle, with significantly improved mobility and a unique feature (increased RoF for defensive bombard). You give up 2 on the attack (implying a nice combined arms strategy). Might also offer slightly decreased shield cost. edit: looking at the tech tree, this is anachronistic - would either need to be a line infantry variant (with nationalism), or have a civil war-era name.

Considering your list:

1 Champ (Aztecs)
2 Archers (Babylon, Iros)
3 Spears (Greece, Carth, Ethopia)
1 Chariot (Egypt)
3 Swords (Rome, Celts, Siam)
2 Horse Archers (Mongols, Sioux)
1 Pike (Tibet)
2 MDI (Inca, Vikings)
4 Knights (Mali, Arabs, China, India)
1 Cavalier (Japan)
1 Explorer (Spain)
1 Cannon (Korea)
1 Arquebusier (France)
1 Cuir (Ottomans)
1 Dragoon (Russia)
1 Ship-of-the-Line (England)
1 Para (US)
1 Armor (Germany)

Babs, Ethiopia, Sioux, Siam, Vikes, Mali, India, US, and Germany could move to neglected units (Modern UU's are a bad idea as thier impact is negligible in most games). You could use a Horse UU for Sioux, Camel for Ethiopia (don't need to require the resource - see jumbos in unmodded), Elephant for India, Hussar for Germany, Rifle for US (see above), Xbow? for Vikes, Cataphract for Babs (no one would mourn the loss of the bleh Bow), etc...

Also wouldn't rule out unique versions of Setlers and Workers, as well as boats that can do special things (like enter ocean a little early - lot of room for play there).

I hadn't realized how much variety you already had, BTW. good work.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Or you could make those units less useless.

Why have useless units at all?

For those who end without resources. XBows in RaR, Longbows in unmodded are not useless if you have them - but who will build any of them instead of Knights?
Minutemen - Never. So far, nobody could ever tell me what was so special about them - any nation I'm aware of had at some point in history farmers picking up weapons and rally to defend their lands. The myth of Minutemen is completely mysterious for someone outside US .
And, the UU should stand for the Golden Age of a Civilization (well, highly debattable for Panzers ). So US need a modern UU. Babylon an ultra-early. I'm not that happy with the Iro one, since Iros hardly had their best time around 3000BC...
So, here Mounted Warriors are even better than in unmodded - but it could be a nice move to not require Horses. After all, the native American tribes needed to "aquire" them before, and that would solve the problem for World Maps, forcing you to place Horses in the Americas.
Panzers are simply very typical for Germany; but a Hussar would make sense as well, not a bad idea.
Ethopia? Camels? I'm not aware they ever used them...
Moving the Vikings to Invention is something I'll keep in mind.

Siam and Ethopia are simply those Civs I'm a bit lost for historical accuracy...

 

[BkGreatWarnut]

I agree with not having America being Minuteman...they simply won the Revolutionary War against Britain because they were 1) Unwilling to give up, 2) Britain did not take the revolution seriously until the tide had turned, 3) the French got involved & 4) America was lucky throughout most of the war. The F-15 seems to be the best for America's golden age...also, whatever it is...airborne something or another...in RAR seems appropriate. America's real golden age started when it entered and began to win World War II...I myself believe that it has for the most part fizzled out during the 90s...

Also, what was the key element in the Moltke led Prussians (basically Germans) victory against Napoleon III at Sedan. Some sort of Hussar would be very appropriate considering that Germany only saw its power grow from the Franco-Prussian up to about September of 1914 when the Schleiffen Plan's attack on France became bogged down...

 

[Bezhukov]

"Minutemen - Never. So far, nobody could ever tell me what was so special about them - any nation I'm aware of had at some point in history farmers picking up weapons and rally to defend their lands. The myth of Minutemen is completely mysterious for someone outside US."

The answer to that question is quite a ways off topic, but I (descended from those who came here by choice) would be happy to fill you in on the details.



Needless to say, there is no shortage of such Americans who consider the age of the Minuteman more Golden than the modern, though the future may yet hold another. Anyway, the American Civil War was in many respects the first modern war, so the Rifle unit I suggested could just as easily be taken from that era. A UU version of the resourceless Cavalry would also work well. Anything later risks irrelevance in Civ-terms.

 

[Bezhukov]

>America's real golden age started when it entered and began to win World War II...

[off topic]

Tell that to the huddled masses who flocked to these shores. That they had shores to flock to had no little to do with those Minutemen. They were fighting for a heck of a lot more than land, they were fighting for freedom from tyranny. We take that for granted at our peril. I would think the 20th of all centuries would teach us that.

This is not the forum for that conversation, but I cannot let your statement stand unrefuted.

 

[Bezhukov]

>So, here Mounted Warriors are even better than in unmodded - but it could be a nice >move to not require Horses.

really, I'm just looking for something a little more interesting than + 1 def and enslave. You've given a reasonably eloquent explanation in another thread as to why that one defense makes a difference (slower overall movement), but I have yet to see it make an appreciable difference. If they are being attacked, it is often by a unit with at least 5 attack (knights/cavaliers show up at roughly the same time), so the difference between 1 and 2 defense is often negligible. It's like the equivalent of the vanilla 3/4 Musketeer.

 

[Kal-el]

The US became a true world power only after it's involvement in WWII and the subsequent devastation to the European nations who had previously held the position of world leaders. Hence the Airborne Ranger, i.e. 82nd Airborne, 101st, etc., as the US UU.

One of the main goals in picking UU's for civs was making sure they corresponded with that civs actual golden age. Of all the civs in RaR, it seems like only the Iroquois does not line up properly. The Brave should probably line up with the late renaissance period in Europe, i.e. he should really be a man-at-arms replacement.

 

[BkGreatWarnut]

I suppose that America was very appealling before World War II, but as far as becoming a true World Power, I personally think that America did not truly achieve that status until the victory of the Spanish-American War...and it is relatively easy to argue that America refused that distinction until after World War II based on its continuous policies concering isolationism until it entered World War I.

 

[BkGreatWarnut]

After some reading it sounds like Prussian Artillery was the main difference in the Franco-Prussian War... However, perhaps the Prussian Fusiler (I think that is what it is in RAR), would perhaps represent the best UU for Germany as it was at this time period that the Prussian Kingdom evolved in the increasingly powerful German Empire. I know that Prussia and Germany are not one, but Germany, especially its military, was greatly influenced by its Prussian Heritage.

 

[Bezhukov]

Guess it all depends on one's definition of "golden".

 

[KayEss]

I've been reading this thread, but haven't done anything with the mod yet - I'm waiting to start a PbEM with a friend and we both want that to be our first game on it. Should be a laugh.


On the Siam UU though the thing that the kings over here used were elephants. I haven't looked up historically how the Indian elephants were used, but here is a quick description of the way they were used by Siam...

They would only use captured wild elephants as they were always more fierce than the elephants bred in captivity. There is an elephant coral at Ayuthaya (the old capital) that can still be seen.

The elephant would have three people riding it and four dedicated foot soldiers to defend it:

1) The driver would sit at the head of the elephant.
2) A defender clings across the back of the elephant.
3) A high ranking nobleman (or woman) or the king/queen would ride on the top in the middle weilding something not unlike a halberd.
4, 5, 6, 7) One foot soldier would stay by each leg of the elephant to help in its defence.

 

[stachnie]

1) Not only the Iron Frigate, any late rennaissance/industrial/modern ship is ATAR (except for Ironclads). You're right, that should be mentioned.

Yes, I have noticed that. And in fact it is possible to figure out that they are ATAR, e.g. Iron Frigate has 5 MP but Civilopedia says it moves 10 tiles, the same for some ATAR land units. Anyway, it makes wonder or Seafaring MP bonuses more valuable (in my present game as Greeks my Iron Frigates could move 14 tiles per turn).

RaR requires10% Lux.

Yes, it is true. Because my present level is Monarch, I almost never used the luxury slider before; now I set it to 10 or even 20%.

The Slave trade wonder can be problematic; consider almost any advanced Wonders increases the unhappiness from Slave Markets, and you cannot sell the Wonder.

But according to Civilopedia this effect is not cumulative so (as far as I understand - and it seems that I am right) they simply raise unhappiness to 2, so it is noticeable especially in the captured or highly corrupted cities but it is not a big problem.


Best regards,

Slawomir Stachniewicz.

 

[Pfeffersack]

@ doubling of slavetrade-wonder unhappiness

The civilopedia still states the effects of later wonders are not cumulative, however the was a recent report on CDGs that they add up (+1 for every wonder).Since I'm not a fan of the slavetrade wonder I cannot comment that from my experience.

 

[BkGreatWarnut]

The US became a true world power only after it's involvement in WWII and the subsequent devastation to the European nations who had previously held the position of world leaders. Hence the Airborne Ranger, i.e. 82nd Airborne, 101st, etc., as the US UU.

One of the main goals in picking UU's for civs was making sure they corresponded with that civs actual golden age.

Of all the civs in RaR, it seems like only the Iroquois does not line up properly. The Brave should probably line up with the late renaissance period in Europe, i.e. he should really be a man-at-arms replacement.

Totally agree on all of this...also, it was the plains Indians who more fully utilized horses, so the brave replacing the man-at-arms would make the RAR Mod's UUs more accurate.

 

[Kal-el]

When Siam was brought up here again, I was thinking some sort of elephant unit would be appropriate. The problem is making it distinct enough from India's UU, and the rarity of elephants on many maps.

 

[KayEss]

When Siam was brought up here again, I was thinking some sort of elephant unit would be appropriate. The problem is making it distinct enough from India's UU, and the rarity of elephants on many maps.

That may be the thing for Siam though - they don't need the Elephant resource to make them. That would make them distinct.

Siam was never a great military power - they had some extremely clever kings at just the times they needed it which was how they avoided colonisation (the only country around here that did). I guess this means you could make their elephants slightly weaker and cheaper to compensate, or you could put in a city improvement just for them called 'Elephant corral' (I had to look up the spelling of that...) which then creates the elephants.

The second option would make Siam pretty unique.

 

[Matt_G]

Just an FYI to everyone:

I have made a reference file for this mod. It has all the data you could ever want to know about this mod in it.
If you ever used (and liked) LoneWolf5050's file for vanilla, PTW, or C3C, then you have a good idea of what I have made here.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised with this file.
For more information, and the file, follow the link in my sig.

 

[Cabbit]

On Elephants, I've read that in Indonesia Elephants are being used to help clear debris from the tsunami (activists are pissed off becuase the elephants are incurring injuries in the process but I don't here anyone offering to go haul the debris away themselves) The elephants are also used in the lumber trade to fell trees. If it is the case that elephants were/are used in the same way by the Siamese than maybe you could differentiate South Eastern Asian elephants by giving them a clear forest ability, and maybe a build road ability.

Here's the address of the article on cnn.com if anyone wants it:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/02/12/indonesia.tsunami.ap/index.html