Rise of the Pasha [K-Mod]

[vranasm]

i think once we hit slavery after those 9+8 turns couple of cities which are a bit unclear will thanks to surplus food convert into military production centers smoothly due to whips.

I am not sure about the NE in Elephantine, imo we would be better to switch our plans and put it into Athens due to TGL being there, so I would propose that Elephantine after next GP will be convert into something other producing center (has good food so maybe whip monster as some other cities)

I slightly disagree with Bursa...we need the settlers yesterday... it's only 2 more as I see it (we have there 1 unsettled which I hope goes towards that fish spot in my south west corner, not lymonds ;-)), that city wasted enough time already, I could see you want to finish the pop growth this turn, but then we should switch

Did I overlook Nappy being in theo? or why we gift missionaries and not do the mission ourselfs? From my experience gifting missionary doesn't grant the religion being spread especially while the AI is in Theo (tried this with cathy in some other game to no extent)

Agree about Sparta being good hub for commerce.

Not sure we should delay Heliopolis unit pump... even if it looks like we have good stack, I still think cathy has superior units now and we were mighty lucky in Athens - we will need a tons more cats imo, or Cathy has to really screw up with her maces and longbows, she is now 1 era ahead!

As per Corinth...the city is not killed by whips, but by Boubou giving us mighty -3 for "motherland"... It has those 3 hills and 2 ivory tiles I suspected yesterday and there is wine hill as another mediocre hammer tiles... that's why I insisted on using farms on all flood plains there to feed all that production and source of the tension between me and L about the city.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for the feedback vran'.

Slavery

I thought that we'd wait for Athens to get out of resistance, then start a Golden Age, adopt Representation but stay in the Caste System to work toward producing Great Scientists, Great Merchants, and Great Artists for our next (three Great Person) Golden Age. On the last turn of the 'Chanel-Plato' spawned Golden Age or thereabouts, we'd then swap into Slavery.

National Epic

My view is that Elephantine is clean in terms of points. The National Epic itself will produce Great Artist points, but that's it in terms of murky points. Furthermore, Elephantine has built one-quarter of The National Epic already. On the other hand, Athens has eight turns of resistance, then it needs a Library, then it has to build The National Epic although probably should build a Forge beforehand, only to have a muddy pool that has a high weighting to Great Scientists and Great Artists. If we want better control over our types, I'd prefer a city that has a clean pool. Pacifism will help with once we get Hinduism there.

There seems to be some resistance to sticking with Elephantine as originally planned, so if the roster generally prefers Athens, I'll not press on with Elephantine, but I think it's the best move.

Bursa

I'm not a great fan of these junk coastal cities anyway, so curtailing the Settler output is fine by me. I do however think we need more Workers. Bursa has a lot of good tiles, but its food haul has not been counted when assessing Cottages vs Farms. We need more production centres, and this city looks like it could make a handy unit pump in time. In the meantime, it has ample room to improve its population before spitting out several Workers.

Napoleon and Theocracy

Napoleon is in Paganism and has not adopted a State Religion.

I have read in the forums that a Civilization has greater success in getting a Missionary to spread a religion if the Missionary is owned by that Civilization, rather than a rival Civilization. As we have closed borders with Arabia and don't have Optics, Hurrian is the only French city we can access with a Hindu Missionary without (a.) going to war with Arabia, or (b.) Open Borders with Arabia. In the PPP I suggest that we run one or two Missionaries up to Hurrian. If two, I'd gift at least one to France. As proposed, when Napoleon has Hinduism in his empire, we can use a tech' trade to get him to adopt the religion and improve our diplomatic position further.

Heliopolis

I'm not looking to delay units, but we need units for Hereditary Rule happiness, spawnbusting, and chaperoning Hindu Missionaries. For this, I like cheap 2 War Chariots.

If we're still concerned about the war with Greece, then 'yes' ... Catapults (and War Elephants) would be of more use, but they'll be really slow in getting to the frontline.

I am also mindful of a sneak attack by Saladin and our inadequate southern garrisons, although he won't plot at 'Pleased'. I'm hoping the shared religion plus a bit of generosity on our part might get him there. Still, some defending War Elephants and Catapult-flanking Horse Archers would be handy down there until we're sure we're in the clear.

 

[vranasm]

diplo with Saladdin is complicated by the Zara vassal... normally the position would be averaged and the UI will blatantly lie about the pleased status, otoh I think I read somewhere that was something K-mod tried to fix...

we shouldn't rely on the pleased status and I can totally see what you have in mind.

as per those 2 settlers I mention all the time...they are actually meant for the better spots since they are both inland and the spot west from Elephantine is actually pretty good with the wheat, hills and overlap on improved tiles.

similar could be said about the place north from bursa.

so in a sense we settled the bad places and now hesitate to fill the good spots.

just food for thought when you start to play ;-).

Agree on workers, but we already have good amount of improvements, but couple more won't hurt for sure. (the mycenae should be ideally made wet through CS farms for example)

As per the switch to slavery...I think we both mean the same thing... wait for athens, run GA at the end switch...which should be those 9+8 turns I mentioned, maybe I miscalculated a turn or two, but the idea is the same

 

[Cam_H]

OK ... I think you're right in that we're on the 'same page' with much of this.

I do prefer those inland spots as well. I am assuming that we'll settle the Wine-Iron dry area to the south west nonetheless (?) or would we prefer to defer that one for a while? The vanilla/Warlords-like propensity for the AI tribes to settle far flung cities away from their core empires might make this area a bit vulnerable to 'surprise' settlements by the AI if we leave it bare.

 

[vranasm]

OK ... I think you're right in that we're on the 'same page' with much of this.

I do prefer those inland spots as well. I am assuming that we'll settle the Wine-Iron dry area to the south west nonetheless (?) or would we prefer to defer that one for a while? The vanilla/Warlords-like propensity for the AI tribes to settle far flung cities away from their core empires might make this area a bit vulnerable to 'surprise' settlements by the AI if we leave it bare.

I hope not...it has no food basically (if it's the same area i am imagining now :-D)

there is settler standing, but that one should go for the fish in south west corner imo.

 

[Habitus]

*lurker*

I've noticed that the AI doesn't adopt religions as easily under K-Mod even if they have founded one and have no other religions. SPI seem still to do it straight away so I'm guessing they work out value of being in religion and compare it to what's lost with 1 turn of anarchy and don't change till it values the religion more.

 

[Cam_H]

Habitus,

Thanks for that - a similar circumstance here.

OK, played nine turns (I think - should check). ten turns.

Some good news in that we did get Napoleon to 'Friendly' before he dropped back to 'Pleased' after we made a tech' trade with him (we got Machinery). He picked up Hinduism naturally, so we didn't need to bribe him.

Also, Saladin's 'Pleased' which now means he's not going to start plotting. I'm more comfortable with Open Borders, but haven't done it yet.

We're the 'head honcho' of the Apostolic Palace, and have just supported a resolution to stop trading with Bouboulina. She founded Islam. 'Yes' - Marble is seen in Greek borders.

Bouboulina is prepared to capitulate. Her latest capital has got a pretty decent stack which could cause some serious damage to our shrinking invasion force. I'm thinking a peace deal might be appropriate.

Athens has dropped out of resistance, but its starving down. Corinth has got its Forge, but we've not quite got Nationalism yet for the Taj Mahal. I've not yet kicked off the 'Plato-Chanel' Golden Age, but I think that we're pretty ready.

Had some trouble with the Barbarians. Lost a few units against Greece. We did capture Argos, and I used the Settler on the Iron-Wine city spot to found Giza north of Bursa. Spread Hinduism around a little.

Spoiler :

Opening Turn:

Implemented PPP changes as discussed. Science tweaked to 50%

ibt:

Funds stolen from our treasury. Axe takes on the Barbarians out of Ligurian ... kills one but dies to the next. We're presiding over the Apostolic Palace.

Turn 1:

Lose a Spearman who attacks an invading Greek Horse Archer at 83% chance of success. We wipe out the stack of two nonetheless. Tech' tweaked again, now 70%.

Turn 2:

Istanbul completes its Work Boat and starts on another Trireme. The Iron's connected from the Worker orders from Imhotep's turnset. Heliopolis produces a War Chariot and another's queued. Science down to 0%.

Turn 3:

Greece founds Islam. Memphis produces a Hindu Missionary, and queues another.

Turn 4:

Ankara completes its Forge and runs its Engineer. Heliopolis completes the War Chariot and goes another.

Giza's founded to pick up Iron, an Oasis, several flat and hilly Grasslands. Can make a small contribution to the empire. Slow build a Granary.

Hinduism spreads in France without our Missionary getting there. He and his chaperon back-track to Corinth.

Turn 5:

Heliopolis completes its last War Chariot and we go for a War Elephant. Mycenae completes its Work Boat and goes for a Catapult.

ibt:

Greece throws a Catapult at our invading stack.

Turn 6:

Thebes: Forge > Hindu Monastery. Istanbul: Trireme > Forge. Heliopolis: war Elephant > War Elephant. Bursa gets its population to 10 and switches from Barracks to Worker.

Napoleon gets to Friendly ... variant rule #2 accomplished without needing to push him into Hinduism.

The following deal is made, which drops Napoleon's diplomatic stance back to 'Pleased'.

We take on a Barbarian Archer with an Axe at 68% and lose.

Turn 7:

Take on Argos starting with two sui-Cat's, but win each battle from there.

Cancel gifted resources to Napoleon.

Turn 8:

Ankara: Catapult > Catapult. Corinth: Forge > Hindu Monastery. Mycanae: Catapult > Catapult. Sparta: Granary > Forge. Heliopolis: War Elephant > Horse Archer. Edirne: War Elephant > Courthouse.

Bouboulina adopts Islam.

Turn 9:

Memphis: Hindu Missionary > Hindu Missionary. Heliopolis: Horse Archer > Catapult.

Turn 10:

Saladin's diplomatic stance moves to 'Pleased'. Make a Clam <> 4 deal with Arabia.

Chose to stop trades with Greece.

She'll capitulate, despite her Knossos stack which could be difficult to take out.

End of turnset:

vranasm << On Deck
lymond
.Imhotep.
Cam
astre << Up

Number of Golden Ages run: 1 of 6
Got Napoleon to Friendly?: Yes​

 

[vranasm]

ok checked the save...

I was pretty surprised by the settlement of Giza since that place didn't come to mind at all... it just means we need still 3 settlers

I say we need Knossos... Athens starves due to some blockade which should hopefully be solved next turn.

The AP being Hindu is great news and means we should spam hindu mishes and at least temples everywhere.

istanbul turns great...i actually am thinking about Globe theatre there, but well it's already 1040 AD :-D seems like very slow game

happy to hear we fulfilled the Nappy rule

the stack gets thinner as suspected so we need more units as i said ;-).

Imo we should not delay the GA much further... switch into rep and hunt some GPP's in istanbul/ellephantine and athens naturally. nat should be finished in the GA.

we should switch into slavery at end of the GA and whip tons of things (hindu spread, temples etc)
edit:
oh and boubou offers city with capitulation, but that doesn't convince me to let her live... we want to get rid of her...

edit2:
on some other note i got some flu with heat and terrible headache, so if it looks like the posts don't make much sense...well we call it flu.
at the same time it means that I won't be available to play till next week which I will hopefully be fine then.

 

[astre]

cam, do you want to play a couple more turns or I am up?

 

[·Imhotep·]

Hope you get well soon vran .

 

[Cam_H]

astre,

Oh - I actually did play 10! Picked it up at the end of turn 154, and finished at 164. All yours!

vranasm,

Giza ... oh ... I thought that it was the 'second' one you meant other than Wheat-Silk-Floodplains East of Heliopolis! Giza should make an OK small production site. Oasis, Iron, and a few green tiles.

I did produce some new units. Really!: 3 War Elephants, 2 Catapults, 2 Archers, 3 War Chariots, 3 Hindu Missionaries, and a Worker.

Also sorry to hear of your flu, vranasm.

As promised, I'll do a report soon-ish. Running late to get to work!

 

[astre]

OK, I'm UP

first draft of a master plan:
- found Wheat-iron-Floodplains city (SE of wheat) with a settler from bursa
- take knossos (1 turn bombard and heal, 1 or 2 turns to take)
- raze barbarian city
- finish nationalism and go to lib
- begin taj mahal in hightest city producer (probably corinth)
- launch GA (with scientist and merchant) at T0 switch to rep
- starve 3 cities for GP farm (istanbul and elephantine and athene)
- start mauselum somewhere (memphis?)
- continue to destroy boubou and get that marble ASAP!
- build more units
- switch to slavery last turn of GA.
- stop war with elizabeth

and sorry vran about your flu but, still, i expect you to criticize my plan


EDIT after reading vran plan again

 

[vranasm]

ok there is still some confusion about the city locations... I propose this one (it's actually derivate of your city placement astre from like 4 pages ago)

not sure why would you want to pick up with the wheat 8-9 tiles of desert...

 

[astre]

I wanted to get iron and do not lose a working tile by settling in the desert but your placement is also nice.
there was also less overlap with my location.

my proposition is in black and yours is purple

 

[Cam_H]

Very happy with the PPP. I'd wait a turn before the Golden Age due to Elephantine's growth and pending Forge.

I'm not really all that keen on founding more cities, but am happy for the roster to sort out where if we have to found more.

I'm a bit worried about that Knossis stack. I did pillage the Horses near Athens, but Bouboulina might have another source. Best of luck anyway!

I am also a bit worried about our financial predicament. A gradual integration of Courthouses here-and-there into our queues would be good. Imhotep made some starts in that department. Slavery will make short work of this matter eventually.

 

[vranasm]

I wanted to get iron and do not lose a working tile by settling in the desert but your placement is also nice.
there was also less overlap with my location.

my proposition is in black and yours is purple

well it could work your way too...we will just waste one of the silks and the black city picks up a lot of desert...

imo we would be better to use my way, but let's see what others say

 

[astre]

the wheat/ flood plain need to be founded.
The other ones can be delayed for some time if needed.

bouboulina have another source: it is the islam capital in deep north.

BTW cam, why didn't you included anything according islam (like holding the islam founding place) in your plan for this game?
I'm afraid it would be antihistorical to raze this city but according to its very low interst in this game, we will!

EDIT: cross post with vran, i replied to cam

 

[Cam_H]

Of course re. Greek Horses.

(btw ... it's Victoria, not Elizabeth that we're at war with.)

I'm not fussed on the proposed city site. I initially thought that we'd be keeping Ligurian and sharing the Deer with Alexandria, and therefore favoured the more northern site that picks up the Silk. If we raze Ligurian then I don't really mind which way. ... aka 'cop out'.

EDIT: Lots of ideas for more variants (incl. Islamic thingie), but I was really uncertain as to how K-Mod would function, so I kept the variants rather simple. I've done convoluted variant games (e.g. The Reign in Spain), but think that a few short variant rules tend to work better where possible.

 

[astre]

Well, an english queen is an english queen
It make no diference to me

For the barbarian city, I see no interest in keeping it. But if you want me to keep it, of cource, it is vran option that is better.

 

[astre]

I'll play soon, if you have last minute tip...