RJ1 - Monarch Beg. SG "Shaking the Lurker Tree"

Looks like a pretty solid set of turns there Rubberjello :goodjob:

It might seem a bit early to some but I think it's time to decide on our victory type. Looking at the worldmap it would seem that conquest/domination is our natural route to victory. <edit> But we don't have to go that route :) </edit>

Given our current position we should be able to engineer any victory condition we want. So I'm raising this issue now to give everyone a chance to think about what type of victory we want to go for.

This would allow us to develop a common long-term strategy for the rest of the game.


regards

Ted

Edited to fix the cut & paste that didn't paste
 
My vote on victory condition? I'll gladly go with the majority. TedJ is right...we are "in the middle" which allows a fairly easy shot at a military victory. I would personally vote not to do this though, but for no other reason than most SGs go this route and I'm just a tad jaded by it. ;)

I would like to vote for Space Race or Diplo victory, even though it would drag out the game considerably.

Roster:
Yaype (Playing)
Brewster (Warming up)
Tarkeel
Dark Savant
TedJackson
Rubberjello (Cooling down)
 
Originally posted by Rubberjello
My vote on victory condition? I'll gladly go with the majority. TedJ is right...we are "in the middle" which allows a fairly easy shot at a military victory. I would personally vote not to do this though, but for no other reason than most SGs go this route and I'm just a tad jaded by it. ;)
I think it's very difficult to avoid a conquest/domination victory unless variant rules are in place.

The most effective way to ensure ANY victory type is to beat the opposition to a pulp and then build your spaceship or hold your election (after suitable bribery) or whatever. Even a 20K culture attempt would require that we stomp on the AI to prevent them achieving victory by another route.

This is why I said conquest/domination is the "natural route" to victory.

As we're getting close to the end of our peaceful expansion possibilities, and are in a pretty strong position, we may want to limit our aggressiveness if we choose to aim for a victory other than conquest/domination.

I know that you started this game as a "no variant rules" but it might be more fun and/or challenging to hold back a little if we decide to go for another type of victory.

I guess what I'm really saying is I'd rather have a planned domination than an accidental one :)

Having got all that off my chest I vote for a 20K culture attempt.


regards

Ted
 
I will go with the majority. If we do go the military way, though, I would prefer starting it as soon as possible for two main reasons. I am not a big fan of early medieval warfare (MDI and Knights are not my favorite units), and I also don't want to end up having to do a lot of fighting in the modern era (as waiting until then tends to tip the scales a little too favorably in our favor). Good work with your turn Rubberjello.

This is my "got it." I should have my turn done early this evening.

Where do we want our next couple of cities, by the way? Should I build along the NE coast (towards Japan), or just be content for now with filling up our little peninsula?
 
Pre-Turn: Pusan ----> Barracks Pusan does not have an immediate need for a cultural expansion, and another city with barracks will be useful. This can be changed by next person anyways, as it will be 16 turns either way.
Inch'on ----> Library Library is cheaper than Temple for us, and I am assuming that it was intended to spark a cultural expansion.
Things look good. On with my turn.

Sidenote: With the large amount of free space next to Germany, Mongolia, and India, I think our main competitor will be the one who can take the largest chunk of territory there. And of course, knowing Germany, they won't settle for not gaining it peacefully (or Mongolia, for that matter).
1000 BC: Seoul settler. Seoul ----> Settler
I considered gambling and sending settler to gems to NE, but Rubberjello mentioned that Moscow had just completed a settler, so we will probably lose that race, as he pointed out. Instead, he goes NW to fill in space. We are pretty much out of peaceful expansion space, so we need to figure out if war is going to be in our future.
Archer disperses encampment. Along with spearman, will move to other encampment to East.
Warrior to North begins trek back towards Korea.
Road to incense completed.

975 BC: Luxury to 0% for now, as incense gives us two happy people per city.
Not much else of importance.

950 BC: Wonsan Spearman ----> Spearman. Good place to continue building defensive units. Let Pyongyang and Pusan (after barracks) build offensive units (like horsemen).
Spearman to Ulsan to protect from possible Japanese invasion to East.

925 BC: Pyongyang Horseman ----> Horseman. Horseman to front to deal with Japanese.
Germany has Code of Laws. He wants 400+ for it, and nobody else has any money right now, so we will hold off on that for now.

900 BC: Germans finish Oracle. Indians begin Pyramids. Germans building Great Library (but are in lead right now in techs anyways).
Archer defeats Barb Horsie.
Barb Warrior approaching from recently appearing stronghold in West.
Worker pair moves to secure iron when borders expand.
Japanese have built city next to river with gems.
Settler begins moving NE to empty space.

875 BC: Mongols and Japanese join Germans in building Great Library.
Namp'o Workers ----> Worker MM to irrigated wheat. Will change to BG when necessary.

850 BC: Archer defeats another Barb Horsie, but redlined.
Taejon founded next to furs. City sites are not very good to NW.

825 BC: Chinese join Great Library hunt. As we are building up right now, I am not pursuing any wonders at the moment. The Great Library would be useful, but is certainly not necessary.
Odessa has been founded on our side of the river. We probably could have gotten there ahead of the Russians had we sent an earlier settler, but we didn't have much to protect it at the time. We are not completely hemmed in by the Russians. Also, they got the other iron, so will soon be capable of building swordsmen. We could easily take that capability away, though.
Russian settler pair moving towards Hyangsan. We definitely need to watch that.
Our settler will be in Ulsan for next person to decide its next movement. Seoul also about to build another, so we can either have a nice surplus of them or change Seoul's building queue (possibly to a wonder, seeing as it has nice production capabilities).
Warrior moves to Western barb camp.
Trees near Pyongyang being cleared in order to get irrigation to NW.

800 BC: Galley completed in Cheju ----> Library (can be changed). Begins exploration of coastal waters.
Seoul Settler ----> Settler (refer to last turn for future building).
Wonsan spearman ----> Worker
Paegam founded. Not exactly a great site, but it is a city, and is filling our space in.

775 Bc: Well, this is a weird turn of events. Japan decided to offer us peace, so I tried to take him for all he was worth. We got 14 gp, a world map, and Kagoshima! Very odd. Of course, the city is on the other side of his empire, but I couldn't pass up him giving me a city. Something will have to be figured out for that distant city. For now, Kagoshima ----> Warrior.

Ok, that is my 10 turns. Just a couple of departing notes. The settler to the NE is not headed anywhere in particular. He moved out one space just so that I didn't take away his turn in case the next person wanted to do something with him. The settler next to Seoul is headed to the NW to finish filling the peninsula. Sorry about the city sites, but there was little I could do with such poor terrain.

Here is a picture of our border with Russia. There is no room left for expansion, so we probably need to get something going militarily. Sorry Russia.


Korea_Including_Russian_Border.JPG


Phew. I spend like twice as much time doing a turn in an SG as in my single player games. I just don't want to disappoint you guys. ;)

Here is the game:

775 BC

Two quick things. I think the settler next to Seoul should build on the desert next to the barb camp to the NW.
Also, note the Russian settler pair in our territory. That is all. Good luck Brewster. :goodjob:
 
I got it! I will play when I get home from work this morning.

It looks like every victory condition is possible with our currnet position. I wouldn't mind going for a domination/conquest win, but would like to try for the 20k culture victory. That said, we need to figure out which city has the most potential for the culture win. If all else fails, we just kill everyone.

With our settler to the NE, I was thinking about marching him (with an escort) through the Russian territory and settling on the river in the jungle (between Kiev and Nara). With some quick culture, we may be able to grab another gem off of Japan. Either that, or I will load the settler into a galley and try to fill up some of the vacant land.
 
Well, I'm not exactly an expert on 20K wins (since I've never done one yet! :o ), but from reading the threads on thr forums here, I think we are already too late for that. Most people think we need the massive culture of the Great Library in order to get a good shot at it, and Germany will probably get it.

We actually can have a good base for any win if we take most of Russia and fill-in to the Jungle line. At any rate, we need to start building some Swords soon and do at least a little pushing. I'm still voting space race, but I'm flexible.
 
Do you guys want to go swords or horsies? We have access to both, and I kind of prefer horsies at this point, especially seeing as neither upgrade to a UU for us. But, of course, I will go with the majority. :D
 
Here is the save


I will post my turns later tonight.
 
I try to avoid medieval warfare, but having some combined arms doesn't hurt.

Horses for retreat and quick movement might be best though?

Will be a few hours before I can pick it up, just got to work.

Edit: Modern != Medieveal. Typing > me
 
Preturn:
- poly due in 25 turns @ 10%
- change Pyongyang from horseman to barracks (we need vets).

1) 775bc
- Pusan finishes barracks -> horseman
- moving settler (NW) towards desert near barb camp
- workers finish road to iron (we'll have it in 6 turns!)
- take out the barb camp with warrior (25g)
- fortify eastern settler in Ulsan (nowhere to go right now
- hike lux to 20% to prevent riots in Seoul and Wonsan
- diplo check - nothing new

2) 750bc
- Namp'o finishes worker -> warrior
- Hyangsan finishes library -> warrior
- workers working (I start stacking workers to get the jobs done quicker)

3) 710bc
- Seoul finishes settler -> worker (MM for +5 food per turn)
- settler sent to Pyongsong (on the coast) for future transport
- diplo check - traded WM around for 19 gold

4) 690bc
- Pyongsong finishes warrior -> warrior
- Pyongyang finishes warrior -> spearman
- Wonsan finishes horseman -> worker (to control the pop)
- treasury hits 1000g / poly in 21 @ 10% +32gpt

5) 670bc
- Seoul finishes worker -> worker (MM food again)
- Hyangsan expands and brings iron and spices within our borders (iron is now online :D)
- workers in NW move onto furs and are ready to road next turn
- upgrade 3 warrior to swordsmen

6) 650bc
- Wonsan finishes worker -> spearman
- Namp'o finishes warrior -> worker

7) 630bc
- Hyangsan finishes warrior -> barracks
- Seoul finishes worker -> worker (MM food)
- Taejon finishes warrior -> spearman
- build Manp'o in the NW on the coastal desert tile

- diplo check
Mongolia / 80g, up CoL & Con
Germany / 1g, up CoL & Con
Russia / 22g, up CoL
Japan / 0g, up Con
India / 97g, up Con
China / 7g, even

Trading
I get CoL from Russia (they were the cheapest) for WM and 152g. I then traded WM, CoL, and 133g to India for Con. After that I sold Con to Russia for 174g. Traded WM to China for and 7g. We now have tech parity with all of the players in the game (and considerably more gold).

8) 610bc
- Pyongyang finishes spearman -> spearman
- start working on spices
- moving warriors to towns with barracks for upgrade to swordsmen (I will not leave any towns undefended while I do this)
- workers (18 in total) are still working

9) 590bc
- Seoul finishes worker -> worker
- Wonsan finishes spearman -> spearman
- Cheju finishes library -> barracks
- Kagoshima finishes warrior -> warrior
- furs are now online :D
- change Namp'o to galley (we need to explore and be the first to find the Iroquios

10) 570bc
- Pusan finishes spearman -> horseman
- starting swordsmen SOD at Hyangsan

diplo check
Mongolia / 77g, even, no iron
Germany / 6g, even
India / 172g, even, no iron or horses
China / 5g, down Con & CoL, no iron
Russia / 24g, even, no horses
Japan / 1g, down CoL, no iron

Science check
poly due in 15 turns @10% (+37gpt) or 6 turns @ 80% (+1gpt)


I will leave the assembly of the army to the next player as well as the science. My recommendation is to go 80% science and get poly before anyone else does. Good luck Tarkeel.
 
My plans before looking at it, is to finish up barracks production, then get a few vet spearman up to the border. Moving them up first, since they are slower, and will need defense from counter attacks.

The rest will have to wait till I finish at work :)
 
Good play from both Yaype and Brewster :goodjob:

I think Rubberjello is right about the 20K culture - the Germans now have the Oracle and are building the Great Library :(

It looks as if we'll need to limber up our military muscle.

Russia seems to be the preferred entree, Moscow has Wines and Odessa has Gems. St Petersburg would give us the remaining Spices.

Perhaps followed by India for the soup course. We could park a galley on the single coast tile separating us and use it as a stepping stone. Taking Bangalore would give us Dyes. It might also allow us to march North and give the Kaiser a black eye. This would have the downside of splitting our military efforts.

Thoughts anyone ?


regards

Ted
p.s. I like the idea of combined arms - best attack, best defense and horses to pillage and/or pick off wounded stragglers :)
 
Originally posted by Brewster
Trading
I get CoL from Russia (they were the cheapest) for WM and 152g. I then traded WM, CoL, and 133g to India for Con. After that I sold Con to Russia for 174g. Traded WM to China for and 7g. We now have tech parity with all of the players in the game (and considerably more gold).

Great set of turns, Brewster! :goodjob: Sometimes getting a good set of trades in is even better than the best military victory!
:D

Immediate goal is to beat Russia back into the jungle with our Swords, Spears, and Horsies. Also, more workers (as always!).

TedJackson makes a good point about India. I kind of hate to go that route right away as they are a buffer between us and the German juggernaut (who will be the big gorilla in this game, it appears.) At least wait until after the majority of Russia is finished off?

Also...time soon to talk about Forbidden Palace location...both if we build it ourselves, and if we get a G.L. (forlorn hope) to rush it.
 
Originally posted by Rubberjello
TedJackson makes a good point about India. I kind of hate to go that route right away as they are a buffer between us and the German juggernaut (who will be the big gorilla in this game, it appears.) At least wait until after the majority of Russia is finished off?
I agree with finishing Russia first. I meant that while we were pounding on them we should, perhaps, be preparing our Indian strike force. I chose India as our second target purely on the possibility of gaining another luxury (Dyes).

Giving Germany a little pain in the near future might stop him colonising all of the NE. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Rubberjello
Also...time soon to talk about Forbidden Palace location...both if we build it ourselves, and if we get a G.L. (forlorn hope) to rush it.
As the land mass is so small I would think that waiting and hoping for a GL isn't such a bad thing. The alternative would be to build the FP in Wonsan then "Palace Jump" later.

I've never done a palace jump so I'm a bit at sea here. :)


regards

Ted
 
Ok, we all definitely agree that Russia has to go. That will give us gems and dyes, and we are working on a road from the spice we managed to gain on the border, so that will take us to 5 luxuries after conquering Russia. I really think we should take care of Mongolia after that, as they block a land route towards our eventual biggest opponent--the Germans. Also, their centralized location would probably provide a suitable FP city for when that becomes an issue. India doesn't actually have any new luxuries for us once we take over Russia's gems and dyes. Not to mention, they can curb Germany's expansion at least for a little while.

Good turn Brewster. :goodjob:

Good luck Tarkeel. :goodjob:
 
Got it running nicely, on turn 6 so far, but want your opinion on a hairy trade.

So far:

Pre Turn Check:
Happiness ok
Manp'o: Already have one warrior, switching to worker
Autogovernor Pusan for food

Turn1: 550BC
Seoul: Worker-> Worker, MM
Workers: Mine horse near Pyongsong
Workers: Clear forest S of Wonsan, will be finished right after this

swordsman for max efficiency
tax->30%, still 6 turns research, 5gpt

Turn2: 530BC
Delhi completes Pyramids
German flip to GL & GW
Pyongyang: Spearman(Fortified) -> Spearman
Ulsan: Library->Barracks, MM for food
Worker: Irrigate Incense S of Inch'on
Worker: Road to grassland E og Cheju
MM CHeju to produce from other forest, order workers to chop down said

forest
Workers: Mine BG SW of Pusan
Spices connected! Workers: Chop down spice forest

Turn 3: 510BC
Seoul: Worker->WOrker, MM
Wonsan: Spearman->Sword
Pyongsun: Sword->Sword
Workers: Road grassland near Pyongsun
Worker: Road Grassland W of seoul
Diplo Check:
Mongols(tech parity): WM for WM & 2gp
Germany(tech parity): WM for WM & 2gp
India(tech parity): WM for WM & 3gp
China(Up Constr): WM for WM & 3 gp
Russia(Tech parity): WM for WM & 4 gp
Japan(Up CoL): WM for WM & 4 gp

Turn 4: 490BC
MM Ulsan for trade
Workers road plains nead Ulsan

Turn 5: 470BC
Seoul: Worker->Worker, MM Seoul
Workers: Mine grassland S of wonsan
Pusan Workers: Move to unroaded forest and start clearing
MM Cheju, workers mine grassland
Taejon Workers: Clear jungle
Pyongsan Workers: Mine
tax-> 50%, still 2 turns, 13 gpt

Turn 5: 450BC
P'yongyang: Spearman->Horse
Wonsan: Swordsman-> Swordsman
Namp'o: Galley->Horseman
Worker: Road hill to Manp'o
Embassy with China for 42 gp: 2 spearman, 2 wines, 2 iron and horses, will

produce settler in 3 turns
Workers: Irrigate plains near Ulsan
Workers: Move to NW arm

Turn 6:
Discover Polytheism (first!)
Research Monarchy at 80%, 1gpt
Seoul: Worker->Worker, MM

Diplo:
Mongols: 75g
Germany: 38g + Republic
India: 178g
China: 4g
Russia: 24g
Japan: 4g

Trying to get Republic from Germany, but they are not willing to part with it, even for WM, Polyhteism, 852g and 6 gpt, but for an added worker they will.

Is it worth trading that much for republic? We can turn around and sell it, but even then we will not get back what it cost.

Imho, it isn't worth it, since we will be using monarchy for warfare.

So far we have 10 swordsmen and 3 horsemen, will be ready to take some russian cities soon, will need a few more horses first.
 
Tarkeel,

I agree.

Too expensive and, as you say, Monarchy is probably a better bet for the foreseeable future.


regards

Ted
 
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