[GS] Rock Band Discussion

[Deggial]

Regarding the loyalty effect: -50 loyalty is really not that OP imo. We have the same effect for Mapuche's 'Swift Hawk' (with -20 loyalty for each kill in the cities's borders), but this can possiby trigger way more often (The unit causing the effect usually doesn't die - or at least not as an inevitable consequence of the action itself).

Even multiple -50 loyalty hits are non-issue in core cities with no loyalty pressure, so don't worry about getting turned the capital.
For fringe cities with decreasing loyalty, it can be devasting, though. But here, it is the very idea of the ability. As it is a one-time effect for each rock band (unless the city has multiple "gig sites"), and the band can dissolve after the concert as well, it has to be on the stronger side.

--

One other thing (I wrote this in the live-stream thread already):
Maybe, purchasing a rock bands should require a 'broadcast center' in the city.
This would fit thematically and limit "band spam" as well.
Reliquious units can only be purchased in cities with 'holy sites' after all and archeologists require a cultural district with museum.

 

[NegativeZero]

Even multiple -50 loyalty hits are non-issue in core cities with no loyalty pressure, so don't worry about getting turned the capital. For fringe cities with decreasing loyalty, it can be devasting, though. But here, it is the very idea of the ability. As it is a one-time effect for each rock band (unless the city has multiple "gig sites"), and the band can dissolve after the concert as well, it has to be on the stronger side..

Getting 2 bands with Inde (-50 loyalty) doesn't appear too difficult from a selection of 3 or chosen (with a policy?) and could flip a huge capital (or any city with applicable district/wonder) in a single turn without military intervention. That is OP and they are right to take it down a bit.

The Swift-hawk ability is much more specific in the requirements to generate enough disloyalty to flip a city. Not only would war have to be declared, you'd need enough units on hand to kill enough units within their boarder to possibly take advantage of the ability.

 

[rattatatouille]

They remind me of Civ V Great Musicians (i.e., can be used for a Tourism boost by having them perform in a certain location).

I think the -50 Loyalty promo would either be nerfed, or as in the case of Apostles, put under a randomized promo tree.

The fact that they're active/"offensive" Cultural units is good. Might be better for ROI for a CV than Naturalists, albeit coming later in the game.

 

[Deggial]

... , or as in the case of Apostles, put under a randomized promo tree. ...

Did I get this wrong?
I thought it is a randomized promotion.

 

[NegativeZero]

Maybe it's me, but bands only seem cost efficient vs. other culture giants. Sure they could possibly be used a 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. time with luck, but that tourism is only gained vs. one civ (without the right promotion) and their cost is dynamic like settlers and builders.

I'd rather invest my resources in general tourism that hits everyone and reserve bands for stubborn civs.

Some of the added effect like disloyalty and religious conversion are quite potent, but a majority of their promotions are linked to specific districts (venues?). Promoting bands to be more effective at particular venues weakens the unit's tourism generation after you've overcome that civ while the rest of the civs (may) lack that particular venue.

 

[Cooleatack]

Since they are adding relief aid emergencies in the world congress and rock bands, why not make them interact too?

Musicians have performed at many concerts to gain donations for disasters, deseases, etc. Who wouldn’t want to hold a Live Aid -esque concert in game It would give the unit another use besides tool for cultural victory and would therefore make everything more connected.

It could be implemented as a boost to the player’s progress of the emergency and give a bit of tourism (but less than normal concerts)

 

[Absolution]

Some realism issues:
1. More religious Rock Bands never had anything to do with conversion of faith, but only to speak to the believers.
2. Space Rock has nothing to do with actual space science. Actually had more to do with chemistry
3. Indie is by far not the most rebellious of Rock geners, and not really a promoter of cultural revolutions as much as the Punk, or the late 60s Hippie music.
And their names look like silly 2000s college bands, filled with internet humour. Realistically, big band names tended more towards short and simple names - The Clash, the Police, Cream, the Smiths.
Most weird is, that the states "uses" the Rock Bands to ther benefit when sending them abroad.... Realistically, Rock Bands caused more trouble to their homeland's regimes than anywhere they toured at.
Oh and I can't quite relate Wonder venues to Rock music. The connection is not the most obvious. Other than one performance by Pink Floyd at a place that is more like an Archaeological Site than a Wonder, I can not think of any famous Rock perfomance that took place at venue that is considered to be a Wonder in Civ terms.

Other than that - very cool idea.
Almost as cool as Velvet Underground lyrics appearing on the Radio tech quote in Civ4, and cooler than the British Invasion of Civ5.

And an idea for a Promotion - Garage Rock will add a passive effect to your band, that for every turn in your territory, Neighbourhood districts provide discount on purchasing bands for their cities.

 

[Siptah]

Oh and I can't quite relate Wonder venues to Rock music. The connection is not the most obvious. Other than one performance by Pink Floyd at a place that is more like an Archaeological Site than a Wonder, I can not think of any famous Rock perfomance that took place at venue that is considered to be a Wonder in Civ terms.

Wonders that should be good for performances for historical reasons: Bolshoi, Broadway, Sydney Opera, Apadana (well, close enough), Pyramids, Colosseum, Eiffel Tower (again, close enough), Estadio de Maracaña, Ruhr Valley (just because of the stupid name choice). All others... why not? A lot of "wonders" not in the game are used for concert performances regularly, at least in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. I don't know about your home country, but your neighbors Lebanon (Baalbek hosted some famous concerts and is home to a festival for 50+ years), Egypt (I've seen Aida in front of the Pyramids, Suez Channel) and Jordan (Roman theaters in Amman & Jerash) do it for example.

Admittedly, places like Bolshoi and and the Sydney Opera sound horrible for rock music, but it is still played there.

 

[Absolution]

Of course, many Wonders were home to music concerts. I just won't think of them as the immediate choice for places where famous Rock performances were played.
Actually, much of the greatest or most memmorable big performances took place in parks, while not being part of festivals.
I'm just being too accurate here, but this is simply my field. I guess, if they didn't name them Rock Bands I would be more pleased with seeing a Musician unit performs in a Wonder.

 

[leandrombraz]

Am I the only one worried that the system will be born obsolete? It unlock at cold war (Atomic era), so it's really late game. Assuming no changes are made to how the victory itself works and to how good the AI is at it, by then you either already won or you're about to win, which put Rock Bands at the same place Broadcast centers are, it come too late to be used in any meaningful way because the player is way better than the AI in the cultural game. You just don't need it, you already won a long time ago.

I like the system, though the way tourists are generated make it less interesting than great musicians are in Civ V since you don't have to target a specific Civ, anyone will do. I really want it to work out but I'm not optimistic. In my current game I'm not doing well, I did a lot of mistakes and yet I'm about to get my earliest win so far (around turn 200, standard speed). I have only one national park, I just unlocked resorts and built only one, I have only one themed museum and yet, I'm about to win way before I can use late game stuff since the AI have no resistance (Brazil have around 100 domestic tourists and it's not going up fast enough) and there's no competition for cultural great people. Also, tourism doubled at computers is OP. I'm about to unlock it, once my tourism is double there's nothing stopping me and my tourism isn't even that great (around 350 without computers).

Rock Bands are cool but it's yet another source of tourism that come too late to matter. If the AI doesn't generate more domestic tourists faster, Rock bands will be like Air combat, a fun system in theory that in practice never get into play. I love the system, I hate the fact that I'll probably never actually use it. I still waiting Firaxis to reveal something that actually make the cultural victory take longer to achieve, so the game actually go into the future era. Rock bands do the opposite, unfortunately.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Regarding the loyalty effect: -50 loyalty is really not that OP imo. We have the same effect for Mapuche's 'Swift Hawk' (with -20 loyalty for each kill in the cities's borders), but this can possiby trigger way more often (The unit causing the effect usually doesn't die - or at least not as an inevitable consequence of the action itself).

Even multiple -50 loyalty hits are non-issue in core cities with no loyalty pressure, so don't worry about getting turned the capital.
For fringe cities with decreasing loyalty, it can be devasting, though. But here, it is the very idea of the ability. As it is a one-time effect for each rock band (unless the city has multiple "gig sites"), and the band can dissolve after the concert as well, it has to be on the stronger side.

Well, he came out and said that they were too strong and were going to change them, so I will take his word for it.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Well, he came out and said that they were too strong and were going to change them, so I will take his word for it.

They'll have to be careful or they will make them all but useless.
With a randomised promotion tree (at least until a very late game policy becomes available) and them having a chance of disbanding every time they are used you can't really depend on having several available.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Am I the only one worried that the system will be born obsolete? It unlock at cold war (Atomic era), so it's really late game. Assuming no changes are made to how the victory itself works and to how good the AI is at it, by then you either already won or you're about to win, which put Rock Bands at the same place Broadcast centers are, it come too late to be used in any meaningful way because the player is way better than the AI in the cultural game. You just don't need it, you already won a long time ago.

You are thinking of how culture victory works now where you can often win it pretty early. But the devs have said that they changed the culture victory. I think it is implied that they made the tourism requirement for a culture victory much higher now so that you won't win a culture victory before you get rock bands. Rather, you will need to use rock bands to get that extra tourism necessary to win the new culture victory. It is the only thing that makes sense to me because if the culture victory were still the same cost as before then the whole rock bands unit would be pointless. The only way rock bands are a meaningful unit is if the culture victory is more expensive now such that rock bands are the only way you can get the tourism needed to win.

I would add that the fact that even a failed rock band can net you hundreds of tourism points and a rock band performing at a wonder can net you 1000 tourism in a single shot also implies that they greatly increased the tourism required for a culture victory.

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Rock bands should also provide troop support like they do in the real world. Help them heal faster when adjacent or something along those lines.

 

[PYITE]

Ed is a Deadhead!!!

https://goo.gl/images/NFWsG4

 

[row2infinity]

Honestly this is so cool. Be cool! Don't be all...uncool! lmao

 

[Jcturmer]

Maybe Leonor has troubadours replacing the rock band???

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Civ has always been a game where the player is kinda like a god controlling their entire civ rather than an actual finite leader ruling an empire or a nation. That's how we can move great people around the map to wherever we want and use them up to gain a bonus. Fun comes before realism. Rock bands is kinda like that too. In some ways, it feels kinda off topic for an empire building game that you can micromanage rock bands on the map to try flip cities or win a culture victory. It's like the devs added a mini game called "rock band manager" into the civ game. But it is a super cool feature. I think it will be a ton of fun to play with and I really look forward to it.

 

[leandrombraz]

You are thinking of how culture victory works now where you can often win it pretty early. But the devs have said that they changed the culture victory. I think it is implied that they made the tourism requirement for a culture victory much higher now so that you won't win a culture victory before you get rock bands. Rather, you will need to use rock bands to get that extra tourism necessary to win the new culture victory. It is the only thing that makes sense to me because if the culture victory were still the same cost as before then the whole rock bands unit would be pointless. The only way rock bands are a meaningful unit is if the culture victory is more expensive now such that rock bands are the only way you can get the tourism needed to win.

I'm commenting based on what we know so far. When Ed started talking about them brainstorming the cultural victory, I was expecting that he would talk about what they did so it would take longer to accomplish, instead he talked about yet another source of tourism (rock bands). Into they actually talk about this changes that they supposedly did, I'm skeptical. It's all too theoretical for my taste. I believe without seeing it that they will make the scientific victory take longer, since it's merely a matter of putting more requirements at the end of the tree, like an Alpha Centauri mission. All other victories I'm skeptical, specially religious and cultural.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I'm commenting based on what we know so far. When Ed started talking about them brainstorming the cultural victory, I was expecting that he would talk about what they did so it would take longer to accomplish, instead he talked about yet another source of tourism (rock bands). Into they actually talk about this changes that they supposedly did, I'm skeptical. It's all too theoretical for my taste. I believe without seeing it that they will make the scientific victory take longer, since it's merely a matter of putting more requirements at the end of the tree, like an Alpha Centauri mission. All other victories I'm skeptical, specially religious and cultural.

Its noticeable that they've made no mention of changing RV at all. I don't think they'd say they were changing CV unless they had at least some idea as to how they were going to do that.