[GS] Rock Band Discussion

[blackcatatonic]

Maybe Leonor has troubadours replacing the rock band???

I almost wish I hadn't read this because I want it to be true so badly that I will genuinely be a little bit sad if it doesn't happen.

It would also help to explain why they chose Eleanor - in this way, she would be a great choice for someone to interact with this new mechanic.

*must not be hyped, must not be hyped, must not be hyped*

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I'm commenting based on what we know so far. When Ed started talking about them brainstorming the cultural victory, I was expecting that he would talk about what they did so it would take longer to accomplish, instead he talked about yet another source of tourism (rock bands). Into they actually talk about this changes that they supposedly did, I'm skeptical. It's all too theoretical for my taste. I believe without seeing it that they will make the scientific victory take longer, since it's merely a matter of putting more requirements at the end of the tree, like an Alpha Centauri mission. All other victories I'm skeptical, specially religious and cultural.

But like I tried to say, just adding another source of tourism in the late game when most players going for a culture victory have already won or are close to winning, would be pointless. So I think logically, it is implied that the culture victory is more expensive now. This is the only way to make rock bands useful for a culture victory. Otherwise, it makes no sense to add rock bands.

 

[humble serf]

Rock bands might be OP, they might be worthless, they might be so RNG-dependent that every different rock band is either OP or worthless... But none of that really matters.

The bigger picture here is that the culture victory is starting to look better than ever before. It won't come to fruition in this cycle, because the Civ 6 culture victory started off way too deep into the BNW system, but we're getting somewhere.

Going forward, the devs seem to be figuring out that the current conception of great writers and musicians is bad. Music and literature should not exist as individual "great works" which can be moved from city to city, or sold to another civilisation. It's a cool way of handling artworks and artefacts, and the museum/wonder theming minigame is a great addition to cultural gameplay... But it's completely antithetical to how music and literature actually work.

So, writers and musicians are bad (conceptually speaking, not in terms of power/usefulness). And unless Firaxis can get the rights to dozens of the biggest hit singles of the past 100 years, great musicians are always going to be bad. Because of copyright restrictions, 20th and 21st century music needs to be implemented in the abstract. No named artists, albums or songs. The rock band is a big step in the right direction. Even if it is a hopelessly Baby Boomer concept of how modern music works, and really only captures the spirit of a few genres which were in vogue between around 1967 and 1990... But what else are they gonna do? Add rappers, DJs, popstars, orchestras and singer-songwriters as different units? In game terms, they'd all do exactly the same thing. Maybe use a more generic term like "recording artist," and have a bunch of different unit models in different game eras.

The next step (probably in Civ 7 at this point) should be getting rid of great works of music entirely. Composers should be abstracted, represented by the culture generated in Theatre Squares (or by specialists). "Musical units" should first appear in the Industrial or Modern era, when orchestras, opera troupes and jazz ensembles start touring using the same mechanics as the rock band.

I'd keep writers, but works of literature shouldn't be physically present in a building on the map, and they definitely shouldn't be able to be "traded" to other leaders. Who can forget when England traded the Canterbury Tales to Spain in exchange for a shipment of amber and horses? Great literature should be "collected" over the course of the game and displayed on its own UI panel. Its culture should fluctuate depending on how your empire is doing. In a Dark Age, people are printing fewer books. Once you develop electricity, your literature gets a culture boost as you start filming adaptations of the classic texts. Stuff like that.

I'm a little off-topic here, but I'm genuinely delighted that the devs are starting to think about more accurate ways to represent the cultural role of music and literature in-game. It's goofy, but if anything it's way more realistic than generating tourism by popping the world's only copy of Beethoven's 3rd symphony into a single broadcast tower to play on repeat for eternity.

 

[Eric Guimarães]

loved it

 

[humble serf]

I almost wish I hadn't read this because I want it to be true so badly that I will genuinely be a little bit sad if it doesn't happen.

It would also help to explain why they chose Eleanor - in this way, she would be a great choice for someone to interact with this new mechanic.

*must not be hyped, must not be hyped, must not be hyped*

... I really hate to say it, because this is such a cool idea, but I think we're only getting 9 unique units in GS. That's one for each new civ, plus Matthias's Black Army.

Troubadours could still tie into her leader ability, but the units will probably still be called rock bands, have the same graphics, etc.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Rock bands might be OP, they might be worthless, they might be so RNG-dependent that every different rock band is either OP or worthless... But none of that really matters.

The bigger picture here is that the culture victory is starting to look better than ever before. It won't come to fruition in this cycle, because the Civ 6 culture victory started off way too deep into the BNW system, but we're getting somewhere.

Going forward, the devs seem to be figuring out that the current conception of great writers and musicians is bad. Music and literature should not exist as individual "great works" which can be moved from city to city, or sold to another civilisation. It's a cool way of handling artworks and artefacts, and the museum/wonder theming minigame is a great addition to cultural gameplay... But it's completely antithetical to how music and literature actually work.

So, writers and musicians are bad (conceptually speaking, not in terms of power/usefulness). And unless Firaxis can get the rights to dozens of the biggest hit singles of the past 100 years, great musicians are always going to be bad. Because of copyright restrictions, 20th and 21st century music needs to be implemented in the abstract. No named artists, albums or songs. The rock band is a big step in the right direction. Even if it is a hopelessly Baby Boomer concept of how modern music works, and really only captures the spirit of a few genres which were in vogue between around 1967 and 1990... But what else are they gonna do? Add rappers, DJs, popstars, orchestras and singer-songwriters as different units? In game terms, they'd all do exactly the same thing. Maybe use a more generic term like "recording artist," and have a bunch of different unit models in different game eras.

The next step (probably in Civ 7 at this point) should be getting rid of great works of music entirely. Composers should be abstracted, represented by the culture generated in Theatre Squares (or by specialists). "Musical units" should first appear in the Industrial or Modern era, when orchestras, opera troupes and jazz ensembles start touring using the same mechanics as the rock band.

I'd keep writers, but works of literature shouldn't be physically present in a building on the map, and they definitely shouldn't be able to be "traded" to other leaders. Who can forget when England traded the Canterbury Tales to Spain in exchange for a shipment of amber and horses? Great literature should be "collected" over the course of the game and displayed on its own UI panel. Its culture should fluctuate depending on how your empire is doing. In a Dark Age, people are printing fewer books. Once you develop electricity, your literature gets a culture boost as you start filming adaptations of the classic texts. Stuff like that.

I'm a little off-topic here, but I'm genuinely delighted that the devs are starting to think about more accurate ways to represent the cultural role of music and literature in-game. It's goofy, but if anything it's way more realistic than generating tourism by popping the world's only copy of Beethoven's 3rd symphony into a single broadcast tower to play on repeat for eternity.

Great post, and some excellent ideas here.

 

[row2infinity]

Now that they have rock bands, I wish they also had graphical variations like pop stars or rap stars or soul singers, etc. I'm getting greedy now. lmao I need my Civ Madonna!!! lolol

 

[leandrombraz]

Its noticeable that they've made no mention of changing RV at all. I don't think they'd say they were changing CV unless they had at least some idea as to how they were going to do that.

Yeah, they are clearly avoiding to talk about RV. That either mean there won't be any change or a surprise they are saving for later.

But like I tried to say, just adding another source of tourism in the late game when most players going for a culture victory have already won or are close to winning, would be pointless. So I think logically, it is implied that the culture victory is more expensive now. This is the only way to make rock bands useful for a culture victory. Otherwise, it makes no sense to add rock bands.

There's precedent for Firaxis doing that. Shopping centers and Aquariums give more tourism, Reyna give a tourism boost, Pingala increase your great people generation, the "wish you where here" dedication give a tourism bonus, alliances give both great people points and tourism and yet R&F didn't try to balance it out in anyway, quite the opposite, the addition of more leaders to the pool means you're less likely to have a strong cultural opponent like Greece, which mean even faster victories. Alliance specifically is in an odd spot, considering that the tourism boost is a tier 3 alliance ability, which you're unlikely to unlock since the game end way earlier. Same for the era dedication, by then I already won. Religious victory is another example. It got easier with Moksha (two promotions for apostles) and alliance (bonus strength in religious combat) while the AI is showing less resistance. The last time I saw an enemy inquisitor was back in the base game, the only meaningful defense the AI use is the occasional debater apostle.

I'm just in a "I don't believe it into I see it" basis with Firaxis, as far as victory conditions and AI goes. I love the Rock band concept, I really do but I have no reason to believe they will actually succeed in balancing cultural victory so we actually need to use them. I hope Firaxis prove me wrong, I would love to be in a situation where I'm struggling to win and Rock is the only thing that can save the day.

 

[pgm123]

So the idea is, the more districts you build, the more Rock Bands can play in your city, and with indie promotion your city will become independent more quickly.

Districts and Wonders. But not every district. You can play concerts at Entertainment Districts, Theater Squares, Holy Sites, and Campuses from what we've seen. I don't think you can play them in Industrial Zones or Encampments. I'm not sure about Commercial Hubs.

 

[Furycrab]

I wouldn't get too worked up about the RNG IMO. I'm guessing there's more meat and bones to it.

The current reason why you would want a unit like the rock band is that you are in a later game winnable scenario, and there's one or two Peters on the map resisting your tourism and putting a really long clock on the win and they wanted a more active way to close out the game.

The problem is bonus tourism output to most of the world is usually quite useless, and they probably wanted these units to really be on World Tour. Now in the demo, they just dumped them at the earliest point in the game on the closest Civ. My guess is that the odds of success are closely tied to how much tourism output you currently have with that Civ and that the idea is that you would go around the Civs you culturally assimilated first at high success rates getting a few levels to finish as one big tourism bomb in Russia.

 

[Siptah]

Did we see the price tag for a rock band? Are we talking Naturalist price range? Each one getting more expensive?

 

[Navelgazer]

Did we see the price tag for a rock band? Are we talking Naturalist price range? Each one getting more expensive?

The first one cost them 535 Faith. The second one (purchased the same turn) was 600 Faith.

 

[Siptah]

The first one cost them 535 Faith. The second one (purchased the same turn) was 600 Faith.

Thanks, so they will get more expensive. That is good, I think. Was it quick speed?

 

[Navelgazer]

I believe so, yes.

 

[Siptah]

Another Theocracy buff, as if I wouldn't take this government already in most games...

 

[AriochIV]

The base cost was conspicuously missing in the tooltip. I get the feeling that rock bands are a recent addition that is still being tweaked.

 

[Stringer1313]

I really hope they have different ethnicity graphics for the different rock bands...

 

[Navelgazer]

As for the Wonder Bonus, there are a lot of instances of bands/ musicians doing big shows at world wonders and natural wonders, see Red Rocks, Yanni at the Acropolis, and now i’m Hoping that Nippon Budokan will be a new world Wonder in GS.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Did we see the price tag for a rock band? Are we talking Naturalist price range? Each one getting more expensive?

It's 400+50*bought prod

Since it can only be bought by faith, it is 800+100*bought faith on Standard Speed.

 

[Navelgazer]

So, writers and musicians are bad (conceptually speaking, not in terms of power/usefulness). And unless Firaxis can get the rights to dozens of the biggest hit singles of the past 100 years, great musicians are always going to be bad. Because of copyright restrictions, 20th and 21st century music needs to be implemented in the abstract. No named artists, albums or songs. The rock band is a big step in the right direction. Even if it is a hopelessly Baby Boomer concept of how modern music works, and really only captures the spirit of a few genres which were in vogue between around 1967 and 1990... But what else are they gonna do? Add rappers, DJs, popstars, orchestras and singer-songwriters as different units? In game terms, they'd all do exactly the same thing. Maybe use a more generic term like "recording artist," and have a bunch of different unit models in different game eras.

It'd definitely be cool if the unit graphics changed from Atomic Era onwards to reflect different influential musical tastes and talents, though it's also true that while "rock bands" are on the decline in influence in, say, the U.S. and elsewhere, they are still very influential in South America, Asia, etc. While boomer-centric, this might be in fact the best way to reflect the concept they're going for, and the graphics team has clearly had more than enough on their plate for GS as is. (But I really hope they at least have different ethnicities included for them.)