Role Play CHallenge: Joao the Restless

[Al-Iskander]

If I may be excused a fanboy moment, this is the coolest RPC ever. I've always wanted to do something like this, and I'm glad to see someone else try it.

Now for suggestions that may or may not be useful:

Religion
1. If you don't bring Buddhism with you, you might have the chance to get all of the other religions by their natural spread and make an unorthodox attempt at a culture victory, if it's not too late for that.
2. If you do bring it with you, you can switch to Organized Religion (if that's an option?) and build up Brazil's cities faster. Those cities will need their buildings quickly after independence. (If you already have the cities well built-up, my apologies, I don't have Civ here and I can't check the savegame).
3. You don't really need theocracy, for any reason. Big land wars against you are unlikely in your current newly-isolated situation, and the more religions that spread to you, the better.

Boats
I have no idea, as I've never gotten to play BtS (only three months more!), but I'd move them into Brazil just to be safe. My guess would be that it works like the spawning-Civs in RFC, that is moving the units away would be advisable, but someone who's actually done this before would be better qualified to say

Independence
You have a comfortable treasury cushion. I'd say wait a bit, but not too long, as in the long view sooner will be better than later.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

You're doing good, Mad!

All I can say is this is very entertaining so far, to both read your play AND play it myself!

Independence
I'd try declare independence pretty soon (1776, bah!), otherwise your economy will slow to a halt and you'll be dead.

Religion
I'd take Buddhism over to one city so you can stay in it for diplomatic, but let the religions auto spread to the rest of the cities.

The New World
Try not to let the other civs take over too much land, you'll probably have to DoW at least one of them to claim more land!

Victory conditions
I'm thinking Culture or Space Race.

1. Culture because well, that would be very interesting! Plus, in my original idea for this RPC, Culture was the only allowed victory condition (of course, that was changed, as it was too hard of a rule ) so it would be interesting to see it done!

2. Space Race, to keep up with Joao II always exploring to new frontiers, it just seems to fit in with the flavor of the RPC a little more.

Plus, they could both be won by cottaging up the new world, probably wouldn't be too hard!

Either would be great!

 

[Refar]

Might be too obvious to mention, but anyway...

You need Feudalism in order to liberate something (Vassal States). It is not a cheap tech tech, and your economy is not going to improve a lot, till you get rid of the high colonial maintenance. Paper is cheaper than Feudalism, so you will not be able to trade for it right away, and you dont have other tech on no one... (Brennus to backward. Toku is a Jerk.)

Also... when you liberate your colony will get (and trade away) all you techs. So if you liberate say after Education - there is a good chance you will be beaten to Liberalism. If you go for liberalism without liberating... Might loose it as well.

I would tech some turns into Feudalism right after Paper (just enought to make someone willing to trade it). Then Start on Education. Liberate. With some headstart on Edu, you might be able to make it to Liberalism in time.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

You actually don't need feudalism to form a colony. I've seen AIs do it from the bcs (and no, they didn't beeline feudalism).
And i just tested it with his save and I was able to form a colony.

Things aren't nearly as bad as you thought! The forbidden palace will be built next turn, and that will stop your bleeding, big time. I set all your old cities to build gold and i was able to raise the science up to 60% and about get about 150 beakers with some gold left over. So I say finish building forges and courthouses in all your old cities and then just build beakers or gold. Run some deficit research and i could see you winning the lib race. Just one thing though. DO NOT liberate the old world yet. It'll kill your economy.

 

[Refar]

Really ? That's odd, because a colony does become a Vassal State (i would even call it a bug).

But good for Madscienist

In that case i would librate sooner rather than later - since the second part of my remark remains - the later you liberate, the more techs you give to the colony. Perhaps a couple of turns before Paper.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Naw, load up his save and see what happens when he liberates. he definitely needs those old cities, despite the heavier per city maintenance costs, they're keeping his economy going. The new world has absolutely no economy to speak of yet. Plus having a vassal will still raise his maintenance costs without getting the benefits of those cities.

 

[Refar]

The save is not loading for me, but it's ok, i believe you

I just kind of assumed, since he moved the capital over, the new cities are somewhat useful.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Spoiler :

Naw, load up his save and see what happens when he liberates. he definitely needs those old cities, despite the heavier per city maintenance costs, they're keeping his economy going. The new world has absolutely no economy to speak of yet. Plus having a vassal will still raise his maintenance costs without getting the benefits of those cities.

Spoiler :

yikes! Talk about economy crash! I'm not really sure what to do now

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I'm sure he can fix his economy before he has to liberate in 700 years.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I'm sure he can fix his economy before he has to liberate in 700 years.

That's true, but IMO that's kind of far away, I would have made the deadline sooner

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I played his game through liberalism, and just barely got it. Another AI and I actually got it on the same turn, but i had more overflow. The only way he can get liberalism is if he builds research, begs for gold, and sells off his cheap techs and keeps research at 100%. But overall things aren't too bad. Just keep an eye on your trades, and you can get some pretty good ones and mostly get caught up.

I guess a safer bet would be to just head straight for astronomy. That'll let you trade resouces again, and you can sell those new world resources back home for mucho dinero.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I played his game through liberalism, and just barely got it. Another AI and I actually got it on the same turn, but i had more overflow. The only way he can get liberalism is if he builds research, begs for gold, and sells off his cheap techs and keeps research at 100%. But overall things aren't too bad. Just keep an eye on your trades, and you can get some pretty good ones and mostly get caught up.

I guess a safer bet would be to just head straight for astronomy. That'll let you trade resouces again, and you can sell those new world resources back home for mucho dinero.

Yikes...perhaps Joao II the Perfecly Content had the better idea

 

[siggboy]

OK, loads of comments from me (not surprisingly ;-):

1. (I'll put this in bold although somebody else has already mentioned it): Do not liberate yet, you will KILL the game if you do! You need your old lands still to farm GPs and for the commerce. The rules say "1776 AD" and while you will do it much earlier, now is not the time!

2. Currently you're paying over 75 gold for colonial expenses alone, and a hefty sum for distance maintenance. The Forbidden Palace will finish next turn and you will be astounded what that will do for your cash flow (I've skipped one turn ahead and the total maintenance went down from over 125 gold to 52 gold).
All of the original cities are generating huge profits at 50% science after the Forbidden Palace. The old lands are not hurting your economy, they are keeping it afloat. If you liberate now you will be treading on the spot forever.

2a. Stop building Courthouses in the new lands at the moment, it's not even remotely worth the hammers. Build granaries, harbors, markets etc. etc., everything that is cheap and gives instant benefit to your growth and commerce.

3. You made the very unfortunate decision to settle on the southern part of the continent first, instead of north, which would have been closer to your homeland palace. Why?? (Edit: if you did it for roleplaying reasons, ie. Brazil first, that's OK ofc )
You've generated a lot of unneccesary distance cost that way until the new palace was done...
Secondly, the northern half of the continent has much better land. Sadly this might have to wait until after liberation, when you can build another Forbidden Palace there.

4. Stop building military units unless really needed. You're already paying 25 gold/turn for unit upkeep and field supplies. If you want to keep the Pacificism option open, any additional unit is a major no-no. Try to get a unit to level 6 by farming barbs so you can build West Point later.

5. Build more workers, a lot more. Currently you have 7 in total and with all the new cities and two more settlers waiting that's not enough to keep up with city growth. There's no Hagia Sophia and no Serfdom, so you need additional muscles to improve the cities.
The old capital is perfect to spam workers, because of all the seafood (you can still farm GP there at the same time).

Again, apart from some very unfortunate city placing in the new world (not your forte ;-), I think you're in good shape and still in the Liberalism race. Trade away aggressively any new tech that the AI doesn't have. With the Buddhist love fest going on, you want to give new techs to as many AI civs as you can in the same turn, no matter how bad your deals might look (take gold as well, if you can). If you don't they will quickly trade among themselves to your loss.

If you still don't have Astro by the time you reach Liberalism (assuming you win the race), that should obviously be the tech to take. Probably you can trade it from some of the AI civs, though (Vicky has it and she'll trade it away to others soon). So take Nationalism from Liberalism, on the way to Democracy, and trade for Astro.

Vicky is the tech leader so probably the best trading partner but I might be wary of giving her techs that are on the Liberalism beeline right now, for obvious reasons.

As far as Vicky claiming "your" land goes: I don't think that will happen anytime soon, and if it does, look at how far that will be from Vicky's homelands! She will spin off a colony to save her economy, and that new civ will possibly be very easy to get along with. You should still try to expand north as soon as your economy allows, if you take a close look at some of the spots there you know why.

Victory condition: if you actually want to go cultural you need to decide soon, but to be honest please don't do it. It becomes very boring after a while and will spoil what has been an interesting game so far. All of the other victories are still open. I'd love to see you go for World Domination or Space Ship.

By the way, very bad luck with the huts there. Probably HBR takes preference over Astronomy if you don't have it yet. Well, not a total disaster, although annoying. Hunt down the remaining villages, you still have a chance for free Astro.

One last thing: if you make screenshots of the globe overview, don't forget to switch on the "Bare Map View" first. Otherwise it's practically impossible to see what kinds of lands we're looking at. Also turn of the user interface (Alt+I).
I've made a better screenshot from your latest save, which is here:

North:


South:


Regarding further city placement: since you should expand towards the equator, some cities around the sugar/gems/jungle ("Panama") would be nice. That way, you also create a port for your ships to pass through, to get from the eastern to the western coast of the new lands.
The sugar spots are nice (there's a barb city there already which you might just keep). If you don't want to found a city proper there yet, build a fort (they also function as ship ports).

 

[siggboy]

I played his game through liberalism, and just barely got it. Another AI and I actually got it on the same turn, but i had more overflow.

Your turns comes before the AI, so if both you and the AI are at 1 turn to complete research, you will win the race. Beaker overflow has nothing to do with it. That's how I understand it, anyway.

 

[siggboy]

I'm advancing in my second attempt to the map, and I've found out that nothing beats SE in this situation. My homeland has only two cities, and I'm running 8 merchants under representation at the moment, and the capital generates more than 50% of the research (the slider is at 50%, running a slight deficit).

I'm birthing Great People like crazy (Caste System + Pacifism + Nat Epic).

I have two Great Engineers parked in the new lands, one will be rushing the Statue of Liberty now .

So, Mad, here's my advice: do everything it takes to win the Liberalism race, take Nationalism and research Constitution ASAP. Then switch to Representation and enjoy the beaker rain in the former capital. Your lack of commerce will be much less of a problem then.

Be careful about the drop in Lisbon after the switch. You might have to build -buildings like market (you can grab Gems soon) first.

Right now to me it seems as, on this particular map, running everything from Lisbon via an SE economy is unbeatable. I begin to understand the SE zealots more and more. It's a superior concept.

 

[madscientist]

Lot's of good advice here. OK, I'll finish the FP and see where we are at. Also good point regarding courthouses in the new world, time to start on harberos/graneries and leverage the expansive trait.

Reagrding settling teh southern hemisphere, that was done because there was some clear and easily defensible land there, I could hookup up horses/copper/iron easily, I could build ALOT of coastal cities, and the northern part had alot of jungle.

I also have a pair of settlers coming over which I shall use.

Most likely I will exhaust the GW missiona gold, and perhaps consider spinning off the old world then, but for now everyone has talked me into keeping it for a while.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

If you have the FP present, then your Old World holdings are a net commerce benefit to you... they have developed cottages, and buildings in the cities. I would continue to use it as a GP Farm and Worker/Settler/Troop source to conquer the whole new world... Don't go dividing the New World like Portugal really did (especially now that the AP is built).. Take it ALL and Fast. You will fall behind but you should catch up well.

I'd probably liberate the Old World at the last possible moment... it is a net benefit to you.
(does anyone have Verssailles yet?)

You have a 3000 gold cushion, use it to support rapid expansion to the new world. Even if you lose Liberalism, you will have a Large amount of cottaged land to catch up with.

One point on Religion... you actually don't need a religion in your cities to have it be your state religion... you just need it in your cities if you want to Change to it, or to be part of the AP. So become Buddhist, Liberate your colony, and you will stay Buddhist... However to make sure the AP doesn't hit you it might be worth having 1 Buddhist city... especially if it is only one , because then you can Veto any AP resolution. (5, 10, 15, 30 unhappiness in 1 city.. who cares)


One other point.. you can beef up your economy by settling a couple of the "caribbean" islands to the west of Panama. You can get domestic overseas trade routes before Astronomy that way. (not as good as trans oceanic routes with the Old world, but still profitable) (also they look like good Specialist sources)

You might consider trading some new world resources to England for Gold to allow you to research/expand

 

[siggboy]

Reagrding settling teh southern hemisphere, that was done because there was some clear and easily defensible land there, I could hookup up horses/copper/iron easily, I could build ALOT of coastal cities, and the northern part had alot of jungle.

It's not as bad as it looks at first sight. Good point about being coastal. Another big plus of "Brazil" is that you have Marble there. There are still some (national) wonders to be built that use marble. Unfortunately not available in Lisbon because you're lacking Astronomy still.

By the way, if you look at the northern hemisphere again, you will realize that there is not much jungle there (that's all around "Panama"). There's a GREAT spot for building a National Park (Eleven! forests and no unworkable tiles), and another commerce/production monsters, both inland, but we should get to that after you're ready to claim North America.

One more advantage of keeping the north for later: the barbarians will be rigging some infrastructure in the meantime, mainly roads connecting their cities and a few improvements, and you can keep it for later. You can also use their roads if they're outside city boundaries.

Most likely I will exhaust the GW missiona gold, and perhaps consider spinning off the old world then, but for now everyone has talked me into keeping it for a while.

I'm sorry if I'm harping on about it, but: while spinning off the Old World now is certainly romantic, it will crush your research (you can have your vassal research what you want, but you need to able to at least keep pace with him because he will not give you his techs for free! You also lose Lisbon as a worker/GP generator). Don't liberate until at least you have some serious beakers flowing in from your newly founded cities.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I agree with Siggyboy: there's no rush to liberate, let the old world donate some science, settelers, and great people first.

I think you should colonize the north ASAP, get a production city up, and then liberate and build the FP. Vicky has astronomy and you want to have that land as well.

(Unless you are going cultural, I guess then you don't really need the extra land...?)

 

[Orzio]

Curious how do huts work since the game has been shadowed and peopel shadowing it have gotten astronemy from hut dosent that mean there are huts on the new world that will give astronemy?