Role Play Challenge: The Return of the Russian Spy

[madscientist]

Welcome to my latest Role Play Challenge, the Return of Peter the Russian Spy! These games are meant to be entertaining a educational with a unique twist on our beloved leaders and/or history as only a Mad Scientist can view them!

Here we are trying one more time to run an Espionage Economy (EE) using Peter the Great of Russia and getting most of our research via the espionage slider. But not all! As you may recall I tried this RPC two earlier times, the first we were overrun by the Zulu army (Curse Shaka!) and the second we ended up in an unwinnable situation after diplomacy caved in. Here I hope to do better as I have a much better understanding of the EE!

Game Settings!

Big/Little Map
Low shoreline with medium continents (hopefully we have at least 2 AIs on our land mass)
Monarch difficulty and marathon speed

RULES!

1) We must make all attempts to get the Great Wall!
2) Great Spies can only be used for Scotland yards.
3) Other Great People we inadvertantly get may be used anyway.
4) We are allows to run any specialists we want although we certainly do want to focus on spies when possible. Thus we can run either cottages or farms. However, caste system is disallowed to avoid a real SE game.
5) We have the science slider at maximum until alphabet which we must somewhat beeline. After alphabet science and espionage shopuld be equal.
6) Once we get Code of Laws we have to turn the science slider completely off and maximize espionage.
7) Last, constitution/democracy/communism MUST be beelined.

There you have it, let's see if the third time is a charm.

Our leader



And the map



Well, not the best start ever?! How do we proceed here?

My first thought is to settle 1 spot south to get the deer but that loses forrest and a hill plus get's us 1 tundra? Maybe better to settle in palce.

Techpath, if we do not move I say either fishing or AH followed by the other. Then BW/archery/Masonry, that' 5techs techs until we can hit the Great Wall.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Kind of contradictory rules. If the slider is off, you steal what you can (aka how are you going to beeline anything after CoL .

Paranoia is over. So I'm back. Ah but, this doesn't look like a super bureaucracy capitol site. In test games, I've found that bureaucracy + SY is completely ridiculous.

I wish were were allowed to settle even more spies there though. Oh well. I'll make do since it's on monarch.

Edit: I suggest 1S btw.

Straight Fishing, AH, Masonry. Get an early settler out, then the wall/BW. Move on from there depending on surroundings. That's a pretty guaranteed GW.

 

[Diamondeye]

Where is this "palce" you seem to mention settling?

No, seriously, good luck, this variant really looks difficult. Was fun being in on the Paranoia btw, I hope you got inspired to joining in on the DI V, or the next Intervention at least.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Where is this "palce" you seem to mention settling?

No, seriously, good luck, this variant really looks difficult. Was fun being in on the Paranoia btw, I hope you got inspired to joining in on the DI V, or the next Intervention at least.

Difficult my foot .

To 1 AD.

Spoiler :

I unlock He early



I hate huts. Oh well. -1 thing that takes skill this game then.

Settled 1S as I described. Marathon turns screw with me pretty good, but hell, it's not COMPLETELY different. So, even though my worker sits in place for a while, no tears are shed. The AI does that routinely by moving around stupidly so it won't hurt.

2nd city:



And the wall as promised:



I go worker techs, pottery/writing, monarchy, alphabet, CoL, slider off.



Alpha and CoL in 380 BC. The reason I went monarchy is that on this difficulty, the AIs get it ultra slowly and I don't want to suffer massive economic breakdown due to AI suckage. Eat that AI. Sure enough, I was able to trade it to 3 AIs...:/.

I settled on techwhorestealing off Zara. He seems to be teching very well, probably because he has his own island non-isolation. This is very good for me:



I easily have enough EP to steal both of those, and while sailing over water may seem a pain at first, it isn't. Of course I have shown galley logistics before, even in mad's RPCS...so this is nothing new. It actually helps doubly because I can traverse straight to his cities without any chances of being caught.

In order to get alpha/CoL reasonably while rexing I was running scientists off libraries. Unfortunately after my initial spy I got 2 GS's which I settled. They've absolutely useless as academies. Maybe I should have saved for bulbing. Oh well. At least it's 2 hammers/turn in the capitol. I DO have a SY in the cap.

Only wonder is Gwall. I have monarchy and cottages and a lot of room so I will probably have little trouble EP raping the AI for the rest of the game.

10 cities @ 1 AD:





Techs:



As zara techs useful things I'll probably go medieval on Kublai. I have the hammers and size for it and he's the only credible threat on the map. I can probably drag him into war with someone else first. Next segment, if/when I get around with it, will be setting up axes at that choke point and filling in to my eventual 15+ cities. Hopefully Zara techs CS soon. He was just finishing up aesthetics and I can already steal more EP worth than I stole form him with philo/MC.

Oh yeah. I could have settled on Zara's land and blocked him considerably. I deliberately avoided doing this, his land sucks. Might as well keep him somewhat peaceful.

EP isn't hard. It's ok at first and overpowering later.

 

[madscientist]

The Return of the Russian Spy: Part I

welll MIT may be right and it may be easy but we shall see (No, I did not look at his spoilers).

We start by settling in place as nowhere looked any better and I will trust the random map generator.



Our tech path went: Fishing/Archery/AH/Wheel start mysticism.

The build orders were: scout/WB (whipped)/warrior/archer/archer/Great Wall

Our scouting efforts were exceptional, nabbing us 255 gold, a map, fishing AND



SWEET!

And the bigger question, do we have access to copper



Yes we do, in a pretty decent location!

We then meet two leaders





Not the best and not the worst. Good techers but not great. Perhaps we can find a better techer to steal from. Zara looks to be overseas but close (NE) and Kublai is connected by land (I saw a scout) but likely far away.

After AH we find



Horses in the BFC! Cossacks for sure!

And after chopping only 2 forrests



So we are free from Barbs and only 75 turns from the first GSpy!

A more fuller map



Lot's of land to settler and establish a strong EE game. All that really matters is how far away Kublai is and whether we need to stretch out the empire early to block the NW lands off. That Northern penninsula leads nowhere, so it's just the NW area, probably one well placed city would do the trick!

Techs, I am looking at

Mysticism
Agriculture
Pottery
Sailing
writing

Then alphabet, followed by the fastest CoL beeline.

 

[bestje]

putting a city on the plains square 1S of the fish should block off that whole area for you, the problem is you would have to delay some great city sites near your start.
I think I'd be inclined to settle the blocking city 3rd/4th

you're confident of being able to steal enough techs to get cosscks then?

 

[apenpaap]

this is, as TMIT said, quite an easy one, but after the hell we put you through in paranoia, you deserve an easy RPC.

I think you should settle the blocking city ASAP. The AI has an annoying habit of settling in your lands very quickly.

 

[Celebithil]

@TMIT

Spoiler :

Why do you promote your scout along the combat line? I prefer Woodsman, for the double movement in forests/jungles and you will be defending anyway (often in woods).

 

[Sian]

i'd rather place it 2s1e of the fish (2e from Cow) ... it'll still block decently enough when first border pops, and it gains the clams, thereby becoming a decent GP Farm short-mid term (fish,clam,cow).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TMIT

Spoiler :

Why do you promote your scout along the combat line? I prefer Woodsman, for the double movement in forests/jungles and you will be defending anyway (often in woods).

Spoiler :

So often it isn't the case. I get angry when I explore along coasts and my unit with woodsman or guerrilla dies on flatland. With combat it's pretty safe regardless (though not really, I lost it anyway because the RNG fing hates me when it comes to barbs). I don't really care for scouts after the first couple turns though. They got nothin' that lets them survive even warriors consistently after all.

I'm not sure how KK got his cities near my so quickly in my game. I'll be interested when the game is over how that was accomplished. I think his cap is much further north...he easily became the biggest civ...a little bigger than me even although I removed that advantage to him in the next segment I haven't posted yet (been busy).

@ Mad

You beat me to the great wall by 12 turns . I got a 2nd city first though. I'm interested to see which plays out better in your next couple of turns...I had an idle worker for some time as a result (not used to marathon) but the production from an extra city earlier might overcome that somewhat. Particularly interesting because you're coming out with your settler now, so it's REALLY a question of order.

i'd rather place it 2s1e of the fish (2e from Cow) ... it'll still block decently enough when first border pops, and it gains the clams, thereby becoming a decent GP Farm short-mid term (fish,clam,cow).

Not a bad idea...wish i'd thought of it.

 

[Sian]

@TMIT

Spoiler :

you allready placed your city there ... you could just argue that you might have tried to little to pump it for the seafood titles

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oh crap you're right

Spoiler :

I was thinking of something else. I wanted that fish tile, and acknowledging that KK was going to settle it soon, tried to get there first. He beat me with that city to the W of the cows by a few turns though so I had to take the less aggressive placement .

Remember, every city you claim instead of the AI is one less you have to take later...this time I came up a little short. I don't think it will matter here though because this is a very generous map.

 

[Celebithil]

@TMIT

Spoiler :

I calculate the odds of winning with a healthy scout without fortification bonus versus a healthy animal at monarch difficulty (for the difficulty dependent bonus). It turns out C2 is not a bad choice indeed, though it depends what you want.

Versus Wolf

• Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
• No: 99/100/100/100
• W1: 99/100/100/100
• G1: 99/100/100/100
• C1: 100/100/100/100
• W2: 99/100/100/100
• G2: 99/100/100/100
• C2: 100/100/100/100
• W1G1: 99/100/100/100
• W1C1: 100/100/100/100
• G1C1: 100/100/100/100

Versus Lion/Panther

• Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
• No: 68/74/79/90
• W1: 68/74/89/95
• G1: 68/78/79/95
• C1: 71/76/88/91
• W2: 68/74/96/97
• G2: 68/90/79/97
• C2: 73/78/89/95
• W1G1: 68/78/89/96
• W1C1: 71/76/90/96
• G1C1: 71/80/88/96

Versus Bear

• Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
• No: 21/26/31/37
• W1: 21/26/36/65
• G1: 21/30/31/65
• C1: 23/28/34/63
• W2: 21/26/66/71
• G2: 21/37/31/71
• C2: 25/30/36/65
• W1G1: 21/30/36/69
• W1C1: 23/28/50/67
• G1C1: 23/32/34/67

Conclusions: Versus a Wolf you nearly always win anyway, versus Lions/Panthers there are not big differences except that G2 works much better on unforested hills, but much worse on unhilled forests (and W2 is really good there). Remains against Bears, here there are not that many differences, but W2 shines on flat forests (W1C1 is right at the jump cut, so only picks half of it). In total I think these odds, if they give an advantage, give it to W2. With the extra movement, I'll stick to W2.

Note that which is best is difficulty dependent as the difficulty bonus puts the famous "jumps" in the odds at different spots, so some may or may not cross such a jump after changing the difficulty. For example that is why W1 does almost nothing on flat forested squares vs. a Bear, while W2 nearly doubles the winning odds. At a different difficulty W1 might be very important, while W2 does nearly nothing extra.

These odds are calculated incorporating the 20% bonus to animals from Monarch difficulty, the terrain bonuses, the bonuses from the appropriate promotions and the bonus scouts get versus animals. (Note that the difficulty bonus implies scouts on flat terrain have more than 50% odds against Lions).

PS If anyone knows how to do tables on these forums I'd love to hear how.

 

[Whitedragon]

@TMIT

Spoiler :

I calculate the odds of winning with a healthy scout without fortification bonus versus a healthy animal at monarch difficulty (for the difficulty dependent bonus). It turns out C2 is not a bad choice indeed, though it depends what you want.

Versus Wolf

• Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
• No: 73/89/96/99
• W1:73/89/99/99
• G1: 73/96/96/99
• C1: 77/91/97/99
• W2: 73/89/99/100
• G2: 73/99/96/100
• C2: 88/96/99/99
• W1G1: 73/96/99/100
• W1C1: 77/91/99/99
• G1C1: 77/97/97/99

Versus Lion/Panther

• Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
• No: 4/20/28/36
• W1: 4/20/35/67
• G1: 4/27/28/67
• C1: 9/23/31/64
• W2: 4/20/68/74
• G2: 4/36/28/74
• C2: 11/27/35/67
• W1G1: 4/27/35/72
• W1C1: 9/23/50/69
• G1C1: 9/30/31/69

Versus Bear

• Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
• No: 0/1/3/9
• W1: 0/1/5/12
• G1: 0/1/3/12
• C1: 0/1/4/11
• W2: 0/1/21/26
• G2: 0/9/3/26
• C2: 1/1/5/12
• W1G1: 0/1/5/24
• W1C1: 0/1/10/22
• G1C1: 0/3/4/22

Conclusions: Versus a Wolf C2 is definitely better as being on a forest already almost ensures a win; versus a Bear you have to be on a forest hill to make any chance, and then W2 is definitely preferred, but still with little hope. Remains against Lions/Panthers: I guess I prefer the 68% odds on a forest and 4% on flatland over 35/11% odds.

Note that this difficulty dependent as the difficulty bonus puts the famous "jumps" in the odds at different spots, so some may or may not cross such a jump after changing the difficulty. For example here C2 is clearly better vs. a Wolf as it crosses a jump on forestless tiles (compared to W2), while W2 does not cross a jump on forested tiles (compared to C2).

PS If anyone knows how to do tables on these forums I'd love to hear how.

How exactly did you come up with those numbers? I'm assuming that you forgot that Scouts get +100% vs. Animals. Thus, an unpromoted scout should have a 50-50 chance against lions and panthers without any terrain or fortification bonuses. (Not the 4% as listed above.)

 

[madscientist]

Terurn of teh Russian Spy: Part II

Moving along on the game, and I do nto want to jinx us but seams like a strong start with possibly an interesting diplomatic setup!. But we shall see.

We start by finishing our settler and sending him off to block off some land, but...



Cramps our style a little bit here as I cannot block off the land with one city. So I decided to venture forth a little bit more.

But before that we met AI #3



So we got Zara, Gilgamesh, and Kublai.

Now we moved the city further along the penninsula



This proved a great move as you will see later.

Tehcpath went: mysticism/pottery/agriculture/sailing/writing/alphabet/priesthood.

The next city we placed close to the capital to generate some needed commerce



We then met everyone's favorite Zealot



Important NOTE:

Kublai is Hindu and the Hindu founder
Gilgamesh is Jewish and the Judaist founder
Isabella is Buddhist is the Buddhist founder.

We finally generated our first GSpy



Which we used for Scottland Yard

We proceeded to get the copper hooked up and got some axes going as I do not want our western cities looking too tempting!

We dropped city #4



Which completely blocks off the AI. At the save we still do not have open borders!

Now Kublai and Gilgamesh are right next to each other which set off



Good, beat up each other!

We eventually got



And the next step is Code of Laws, but Confuscianism has alreayd been founded! Note that Zara is currently Confuscian, and the founder.

So how often does this happen! 4 religions founded by 4 different leaders and here we are with massive amounts of land and no open borders!

We still need to desperately connect western and eastern Russia and I found this screen shot particularly funny



Seams like everyonbe wants a road to that Oasis!

So after teching alphabet we look at techs



And make some trades



And do we have iron



You bet we do!!!!!! And right in the BFC of St. Petersberg!

A minor trade with Isabella to open up CoL



So our espionage slider is at arround 30%, and so is the Science slider. I am NOT rushing CoL and NOT runnning scientists in Moscow as I want another "Untarnished" GSpy for the next Russina espionage city!

We moved a modest stack towards that Annoying Barb city



And kept it for city #5.

We saved here, building more military, spies and settlers (or planning to). My feeling is to max out th land and who cares if the espionage slider drops to 10-20%, it will rise eventually and we are getting good espionage from Moscow.

Speaking of espionage, no plan yet and I am evenly distributing eps! I will redirect once we decide who is the tech king, and right now none look too strong.

A view of the land



Techs



Metal casting sure looks tempting there!

So there you have it! I think walls and a mixture of units in Rostov and St. Pete incase those Ais get any ideas. But to be honest I think diplomacy should favor us. My biggest concern is noone wants open borders and the techpace stagnates here, but so be it! There is nothing to say we cannot overrun the lands in the middle ages if need be!

 

[Loki Strikes]

Stellar early city locations there, iron and blocking with St. Pete is amazing, you have lots of land, I would prioritize walls in nearly all your cities tbh as they are required for castles which give an espy boost which will be much appreciated I am sure as it is essentially a spy's library(but better) with the 25% esp boost and the additional trade route gives more commerce... which goes back into espy for you. Another point favoring walls is, you have a large area of blocked land and 2 chokepoints, which will not require a large standing army... and by building walls to castles not only gives you espy, but decreases the need for large armies. However you can always go out and conquer like a madman(pun intended), however this map looks like a cakewalk based on your early expansion and the AI religious strife, so an exercise in finesse would be better to read and learn from.

 

[Celebithil]

Why don't you just try and steal CoL from Zara? You want an espionage economy after all, and self-researching it will probably take longer.

And I think you should try and found another religion and adopt that as your state religion, just to make the party complete (not sure how you want to do that in espionage economy though, but well).

 

[Pieman]

Very interesting situation here. Four competing religions and rivals who are much more likely to be at each others throats rather than going after you. Time to consolidate your lands, turtle up and let the spies loose on your distracted opponents!

 

[Sian]

Rostov 1N would have blocked alone after a single border pop

futhermore, a city if you can make it 2s of the rice beyond Rostov/St. Pedersborg looks decent as well

 

[madscientist]

Rostov 1N would have blocked alone after a single border pop

futhermore, a city if you can make it 2s of the rice beyond Rostov/St. Pedersborg looks decent as well

You are correct about that lone city to block, but it was sort of a fast decision. When I saw the Barb city I decided I wanted it a redid my plans, so I settled more agressively to the west as Kublai was nowhere in sight. I was concerned about production for the city and was very pleased to the iron. Also since Kublai is creative I thought settling two more westernly planted cities would be a good thing so when the eventually got culture pressure they took the brunt and kept the cities protected from them. Also those 2 long penninsulas are great for defenses and the distribution of the 4 religions had no occured yet (or not so obvious).

A sfar as new cities, there are LOT of good sites! And the faster the better.