Roleplaying Challenge: The Catfight

[pigswill]

Also playing on epic prince.

Spoiler :

Up to 1000ad and pulling away from the pack:

[

Only problem at the moment is that Liz founded Christianity and the shrine and has swopped out of buddhism, therefore going from friendly to pleased. Probably slip her education, philosophy and lib then bribe her to accepting free religion (in theory its her favourite civic) to get a 'wise civics' bonus.

 

[shyuhe]

@Cam - the reason I suggest the PA first is because your vassal must also be well liked by the target civ. So if you vassalize a hated civ, you'll never be able to get a DP/PA. You've been warned I hope you don't end up like me having to use spies to shift enemy religions and civics to shore up bonuses.

I played as Boudica in my game and I thought she had a wonderful starting position. Assuming you didn't get boxed in. Then again, I axe rushed two of my neighbors so it's kind of hard to tell...

 

[Bleys]

You're right Shyuhe, I didnt have a full map, and only saw her southern tundra cities, and assumed she had a tundra start. I just got a full map from Liz in a trade, and Boudica's start is pretty solid, better than Cathys, thats for sure. It seems she went along the southern shore in my game, all the way near Vicky, because she has a couple ugly cities down there. Also:

@Cam - the reason I suggest the PA first is because your vassal must also be well liked by the target civ. So if you vassalize a hated civ, you'll never be able to get a DP/PA. You've been warned I hope you don't end up like me having to use spies to shift enemy religions and civics to shore up bonuses.

How does this work? I ended up vasselizing Vicky, who was disliked by Izzy and Boudi, but OK with Liz, who I am planning to try for the PA/DP with. Am I ok? I am seriously beginning to doubt my ability to win according to the conditions, I will most likely end up with a Domination win unless I raze most of Boudis cities, she has a lot of land.

 

[Cam_H]

@Cam - the reason I suggest the PA first is because your vassal must also be well liked by the target civ. So if you vassalize a hated civ, you'll never be able to get a DP/PA. You've been warned I hope you don't end up like me having to use spies to shift enemy religions and civics to shore up bonuses.

shyhe,

Thanks for the 'second' warning , and you're not making my predicament very easy!

When you say "you'll never be able to get a DP/PA", are you in a position to expand this? By "never" do you mean that it will be difficult, or simply the Civ4 program will not permit it to happen? I've hunted around a bit in other threads but have yet to spot a "My intended PA partner hates my Vassal" type discussion.

[Edit] Didn't have to look too far ... discussed in We just don't like you enough! ... it seems that it might be merely "very difficult"! [/Edit]

(I don't think any of the below is spoilerish, but just to be safe ...)

Spoiler :

Recap: Catherine's a Buddhist. So is Isabella a.k.a. Mattimeo, Boudica, and Elizabeth. Hashepsut is Jewish and unfavourable with everyone but Elizabeth. Isabella and Boudica are at war. We're about to put our Renaissance developmental phase behind us and within 50ish turns kick somebody's behind.

Copied from my last spoiler;

Option 1. Permanent Alliance out

For starters, at the moment I can actually aim to win the game quickly with a Defensive Pact (I have Military Tradition) rather than a Permanent Alliance, but it just seems more tidy to just hit Domination with a PA partner.

Russia's the only tribe with Gunpowder or Military Tradition, and we are just about to get Rifling. The other tribes have a heap of Medieval rubbish.

Timing will be a problem ... I can't be at war when I win by Domination as I need to be in a Defensive Pact, so I need to get Domination with a border pop or run down my population and get the landmass first, sign the Defensive Pact, and then let my cities' populations grow.

Option 2. Ignoring that pessimist; shyhe!

Hatshepsut was my intended vassal, as she's #2 in landmass and population. It was my intention to vassalise Egypt and then sign up either Boudica or ideally Isabella/Mattimeo as the PA partner. Seems easy enough except both Celtia and Spain are 'annoyed' with Egypt and if shythe is right then I've 'shot myself in the foot'.

The only tribe Hatshepsut does have good relations with is the universally liked, small but reasonably advanced Elizabeth. So Vassal-Egypt, PA-England and then go to war with Celtia might be one option. Downside however might be that as soon as Elizabeth gets Liberalism she'll flip into Free Religion and Russia will therefore have to work harder to lock in that PA.

There are lots of variants with this one, but the vassalise Egypt - PA with Spain just looks the easiest if it's do-able at all. I'm already 'Friendly' with Spain, and I'm not even in Theocracy. According to Anion's guide, Isabella will sign a PA at 'Pleased' - but that may or may not be affected by shyhe's warning.

Option 3. shyhe's proposition

It seems the safest option may be implementing 'shyhe's proposition'; to create a Defensive Pact with any other Buddhist once the Celtic-Spanish war is settled, tech' to Communism or Fascism, sign the Permanent Alliance, war with Egypt, Hatshepsut vassalises. Problem here is that while simple, it will probably be the longest time-wise.

I'll continue to ponder ...

Mattimeo,

Clarification on the variant please ...

5 Competitors ...

1 is killed off
1 is vassalised
1 is in either a Defensive Pact or Permanent Alliance

... on the turn that the game is won.

This of course leaves 2 other tribes. Do I need to be at Peace with these two? Can I be at War? Can I vassalise them? Can I kill them off? etc.

 

[pigswill]

Re Victory Conditions:

Spoiler :

I'm acting on the assumption that its one dead, one vassal, one ally and two more (alive but not vassals or allies).

If its easier to get the Ally before the Vassal (and it probably is) then the preconditions for a PA afaik is friendly relations, 40 turns of mutual military or defensive pact and requisite tech for PA (communism or fascism).
Defensive pact requires a minimum of friendly relations and military tradition; mutual military is more straightforward.

Once you've got the PA then depending on the size of your ally you should be getting fairly close to domination, ideally your vassal would tip you over the limit as soon as they capitulated.

 

[shyuhe]

@Cam:
Yes I meant very difficult when I said never. The big problem is that you can't control the trades that your vassal makes. The only thing you can really control are civic choices and war declarations. Shared civics can be a good bonus depending on your PA target civ (some civs go as high as +6 or 7 I think). Shared religion can grow over time as well. Unfortunately if the vassalized civ has a favorite civic, it is likely that she will change civics to that and ignore your orders. I had Isabella as my vassal and she kept on adopting theocracy when I needed her in OR. It was frustrating having to use spies on my own vassal to force civics!

You should also remember that you can't sign a PA if you or the PA target are #1 in power (I think - it may be score). They'll either say "we're doing fine on our own" or "you've grown too powerful for us". I ran into the latter and there was nothing I could do about it at that point (I owned 1/2 of the map when I started hunting around for a PA partner). So I was forced to cultivate a DP while saddled with a not so well liked vassal (which eliminates the mutual struggle option). I think option 3 from your spoiler is the safest but longest. Then again, if you end up burning 200 turns trying to get a DP like me, you'll end up spending more time on your game

 

[pigswill]

@ shyuhe

Spoiler :

Can't get PA if you're number one is going to be a problem for me as I have a reluctance to give away cities or disband units. I could do it but it would just feel wrong.
So maybe Plan B. Get a vassal and a DP then go for a diplomatic or pseudo-diplomatic victory.

Loking through the opening post the victory condition is open and diplomatic should be faster than space and less fiddly than domination.

So get Mil Trad then beeline MM picking up some entertaining wonders on the way to distribute largesse to my friends.

 

[Bleys]

Well, my game is done, and I failed the RPC

Spoiler :

I accidently voted for myself for an AP win, I thought it was another annoying pop-up and clicked it before I realized all the other civs had my religion and this was the winning vote. Oh well. I doubt I could have gotten a DP anyway, I really didnt handle the diplo in this game very well. My usual style in Pangaea is "whatever, my Rifles are coming soon anyway", heh. Plus I had almost half the map and was a good 4-6 techs ahead, I could have even delayed Lib for Rifling, I was that far up. Game was great fun, but Prince is a bit below my level. I think I also picked the civ with the best starting position, not close to anyway, lots of great tiles to settle, etc and stone, which is lethal in the hands of an SPI civ. Great fun though, enjoyed every minute.

 

[Cam_H]

Bleys - unfortunate! Glad you enjoyed the game though.

I followed shyuhe’s suggestion and got Catherine there eventually for 1738AD win.

Thanks to Mattimeo for starting the game, Bleys for opening it up as a ‘community project’ , and shyuhe and pigswill for input on signing Permanent Alliances.

Spoiler contains game narrative and ‘strategic’ observations.

Spoiler :

Re-cap

Up to 400AD

Catherine begins with a pretty uninspiring starting terrain. She commits to an early rush while also taking a run at The Pyramids (no Industrious leaders on the map). Two extra cities are quickly founded, and Moscow is used as an Axe and Sword pump. The troops head to the south east and raze Victoria’s three cities. Victoria's dead. Two spots are soon resettled in somewhat better locations in Victoria's former stomping ground.

400AD – 1450AD

With a pretty fair chunk of land to work with, Catherine then goes through a long period of empire development. Quite technologically behind at 400AD, not only a host of Wonders are later founded through this 110 turn period, but as the empire grows its cities define and focus their respective roles. By 1450AD, Military Science is in, and Russia is five turns from Rifling. Catherine is the score leader and roughly on tech’ parity with Isabella a.k.a. Mattimeo. All nations but Egypt are Buddhist, but Spain and Celtia are at war.

It’s at this point that the variant becomes the issue;

One leader gone (already Victoria’s England)
One leader vassalised
One leader in a Defensive Pact or Permanent Alliance
Two leaders - alive, not in an alliance or vassals with the human player​

I have not previously played a game with Permanent Alliances on, and am mindful of shyuhe's point, who warns that securing a PA with an unpopular vassal under your control can become very difficult (or unlikely). Furthermore, forum threads advise that there are a host of other objections that a prospective PA partner can come up with to not proceed with the Alliance, including “You are becoming too powerful for us”. The recommendation from shyuhe was to secure the PA first, then go after the vassal.

… So what happened?

From 1450AD

While merely 5 turns from Rifling and about to become the powerhouse warmonger on the Pangaea, a massive change in policy is implemented. Russia opts to court neighbouring Spain as its PA partner, and decides to bee-line Fascism (instead of Communism, thereby keeping The Great Library and The Temple of Artemis alive). Isabella a.k.a. Mattimeo helps somewhat in this pursuit through some handy trading of pre-requisite technologies. A switch to Theocracy is also part of the picture, although it would be some time before Russia would actually leverage the civic for the troop promotions.

Almost immediately into the turnset, Spain requests Russia’s aid in the war against the undeveloped yet large-ish Celtic empire.

We of course concede to the request, although are wary of Boudica becoming someone’s vassal and upsetting our diplomatic machinations. The war indeed does prove to be beneficial, as our small stack of Cuirassiers and Trebuchets that had been watching the Egyptian border to the north end up getting redirected to the west and succeed in taking two large Celtic cities before Boudica is prepared to sign away a fair old chunk of gold and gold per turn for peace. Isabella, having taken only one Celtic city fortunately too quickly negotiates peace.

More gifts to Spain and lopsided deals proceed, and Isabella a.k.a. Mattimeo finally agrees to a Defensive Pact. A PA won’t be signed until there is a considerable period of time in the Defensive Pact - an agreement that could be unstuck at any moment. With Egypt and Spain of differing faiths, there is somewhat of a Damocles Sword hanging over the plan as either could break the Pact with a moment of religious zeal.

Fascism is reached – we get our Great General – and still no luck with the Permanent Alliance. She needs to spend more time in the DP. With most other tribes now starting to make headway on the PowerChart, the opportunity opens up to review Rifling again (without wishing to be perceived as ‘too powerful&#8217. For the meantime Russia had been pressing ahead with developmental pursuits – long overdue city improvements, more Workers, and a few additional cities were founded in fringe spots. The Pentagon and The Statue of Liberty were added to the growing pile of Russian-owned World Wonders.

With relentless checking of the diplomatic situation, Isabella a.k.a. Mattimeo finally agrees to the much sought after Permanent Alliance!

Russia instantly swings into troop production. Hatshepsut has gone to great lengths it would seem to avoid acquiring Gunpowder, instead off up the Democracy pathway, and apparently getting little help from her only ally in Elizabeth (who in my experience is a particularly tough tech’ trader).

It’s reported that forming a PA can mutilate the human player’s economy, however as Spain had The Mahabodhi things progressed fairly well.

With Russian war preparations underway, England's Elizabeth was lurking around in a worrysome fashion with ‘enough on her hands’ ...

... England and Celtia went to war, with Elizabeth dragging Hatshepsut into the conflict.

Hatshepsut moved her big stacks of Medieval units out of her cities and off to fight the Celts, leaving her cities garrisoned with typically three or four CG1+2 Longbows.

It was too good – we weren’t ready, but nonetheless we declared.

Catherine had to do the occasional ‘promote Axe to Infantry’ as Hatshepsut sent unexpected menacing invasion stacks to some of our more poorly protected cities, but in the end it was ‘fly swatting’.

Isabella a.k.a. Mattimeo played her part in pummelling Egyptian forces endeavouring to attack Celtic cities, but Catherine was the one cutting a swathe through the Egyptian empire. By the fall of the fifth Egyptian city, with the capital due next, we brokered the deal in 1736AD.

Overall

Following a better understanding of Permanent Alliances, my strategy underwent a significant shift in focus from turn 310 that probably led to a much later finish than I am confident is possible. I’m still unsure if a Domination win could be pulled off using a Defensive Pact instead of a Permanent Alliance, but it would require a great understanding of the mechanics of the game (triggering a win under the right conditions), or luck, or possibly even both. Diplomatic by Apostolic Palace or Cultural seem most likely for an alternative quickish win to Domination.

The variant does seem to encourage an early game rush and decimation of a neighbour, and then development as a solid but not powerful tribe to arrange the PA.

Russia was fortunate in that most tribes adopted Buddhism, and the one that went in an alternative direction (Hatshepsut’s Egypt) was essentially a pacifist.

From this singular experience with Permanent Alliances, I’m guessing that many of the religious zealots make good prospective partners (I’m thinking; Brennus, Saladin, Isabella), as you can simultaneously get diplomatic pluses from both sharing a religion and adopting a religious civic. This is one reason why I decided not to chase Elizabeth as my PA partner here.

Saved games at 1450AD (towards end of ‘developmental’ point) and 1736AD (victory triggered next turn) if anyone happens to be interested (apologies for a number of micro-management gaffes!).

 

[pigswill]

Got there in the end:

Spoiler :

The tricky bit with the diplo victory route is ensuring that your DP partner and your vassal get on well, shared religion and both of them employing the other's favourite civic helps with that.

Another problem was Cathy retained her pariah status throughout the game, I didn't want to open borders (diplo penalties for trading with worst enemy) so I had to go to war and capture a couple of her cities so that I had a clear route to invade Hatty. Hatty was incredibly reluctant to capitulate, I had to take most of her cities before she agreed. I suspect that an AI won't capitulate until they've lost half their land. Creative civs have been building up culture for a very long time so they tend to retain tiles quite easily and you have to capture a city to remove its cultural influence from a tile about five tiles away. Still it wasn't difficult, just tedious and time consuming.

Another concern I had was that Vicky could declare on Cat at the wrong time which would have negated the DP for the duration of the war, fortunately this didn't happen so that was lucky.

The early rex after taking out Spain meant that I dominated the game from fairly early on and winning as such wasn't in doubt but acheiving the variant was not so straight forward.

Overall an enjoyable game. Thanks to Mattimeo for getting it started and allowing other people to butt in.

Congrats to Cam. Nothing wrong with coming second .