Roman Concept Art

[Goldflash]

goldflash, silly comment.......if terrorist planes could crash into sky scrapers then you would all put sam sites on the top of buildings wouldent you!!!!!

I've been saying that for years....

 

[Dom Pedro II]

for your infomation an imperial romans kit weighed about 60lbs a british royal marine in the falklands war carried 120lbs so the weight is a silly argument, the kit your american soliders carry in afgan is far heavier than any roman or even a medieval knight

If we're counting everything a US soldier carries vs. only a knight's armor, then yes, you're right. But the fact of the matter is that if a knight had to carry all of the supplies that a US soldier carries, they couldn't do it. Or if they could, they're mobility would be drastically reduced. Do you think a knight could march 20 miles a day in that?

goldflash, silly comment.......if terrorist planes could crash into sky scrapers then you would all put sam sites on the top of buildings wouldent you!!!!!

Dom Pedro......ok fine draw something then

I think you're getting unnecessarily hostile and defensive. We're being critical, yes, but it's not personal. We just think that the idea needs to be refined. Just take it easy.

and on the artillary point......nothing in that era could stop canaster shot etc so the point is not valid.....
armour.protects agsinst your bayonette your sword and if your lucky it will bounce your bullett too.........
german ww1 stormtroopers loved there armour, and it nearly gave them the avantage they needed to win too......

First of all, it does not invalidate my point. If anything, it reinforces my point. Nothing could stop canister, so then it was pointless to have something that added an extra burden on the soldier that couldn't stop it. An armor plate doesn't protect against a bayonet, a sword or anything else if the enemy hits anything other than the chest or the back. It would help a little yes, I said that... but as I said the benefits were MARGINAL. And considering the drag it would cause in mobility as well as resources, it wouldn't be worth the investment.

And german WWI soldiers wore metal HELMETS, as most of the soldiers did by the end of the war as well, but that's a long way from a 50 lb. chest plate.

The very fact that Civil War soldiers discarded their metal plates by the dozens shows that they obviously weren't very useful. Especially when you consider that they paid for them themselves only to throw them into ditches on the side of the road.

No, use the steel to make an extra ten artillery pieces to support the boys and I guarantee they'll do a world more good.

id like to see nopoleon march his line infantry up to my roman fire a few vollies and watch them do nothing then in amazement watch the romans plow through the french with there swords leading the way.......... like most nopoleonic battles concluded with anyway........

If you think the Roman line would just stand there completely unaffected, that's fantasy. Nevermind the shots that would hit somewhere other than the chest, many others would ricochet off the metal doing more damage. This isn't even counting the artillery. With bayonets charged, the French would have an extra foot at least over the Roman swords. Your boys would be skewered before they even got within striking range. They wouldn't necessarily lose, but the metal plates hardly make a victory more likely.

how come i have no support with this, everyones a critic, fine we will just have 2 dress all romans in nice prussian infantry uniforms or equivelent and make them all the same, now wont that be wonderful

ross, it's not that. But you've got to realize that if you offer up an idea, not everybody is going to immediately agree with it. They'll suggest changes to make it more plausible. If you don't like it, then don't open a discussion.

 

[Ozymandias]

I would say lose either the gladius or the bayonet, or have them combined into an oversized bayonet that could, if need be, be used by itself.

-Oz

 

[ross42002]

Dom Pedro i was talking about german ww1 stormtroopers who did have armour vests.....it did a great deal for them, im not talking about the regular infantry, have you not ever seen these armoured vests, i can gladly find pics for you if you so wish....
and its not the fact that im annoyed about the criticical study..but all people have said is just make it a regular nopoleonic solider with a roman helmet.......all im trying to do is something diffrent....abit of imagination, gets a slap in the face round here it seems though

ozymandias i thought about that, am still in mixed minds about it wondered if if was worth keeping the gladius just as 2ndry....or even tradition.....

i have often thought about this to myself..take the anglo-zulu wars for instance......
there would not have been half as many casulaties at isndwana (spl) if there soliders had been armoured......you could even say that a roman legion would have done better than all the british soliders with there rifiles did.......and for people who dont know about the battle.....the british lost

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I have not heard of storm troopers with body armor, I'll admit. I'll take your word for it that it existed, but I would like some citation of evidence that they were decisively effective.

I didn't say just use a regular Napoleonic soldier with a Roman helmet. I have been a strong proponent of flavor units, and I think that there are indeed a wide range of things that can be done to "Romanize" this unit. However, as I have said, I just don't see the armor as being useful at this point in history so that the Roman Empire would spend the extra money to issue them to their regular troops.

 

[ross42002]

here we go armoured brestplated german wwI stormtrooper, and i know for a fact that they did very well, and were the last great push the germans made.....look up the kiser offensive

 

[Thorgrimm]

Dom Pedro, FYI

Used by Snipers and Machine Gunners to protect against enemy fire and shrapnel



Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Suka]

What happened to CHAINMAIL armor? It could act as the equivalent of a napoleonic bullet-proof vest, leightweight and stuff. Its lighter weight.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

So then these were not issued to the general infantry? But rather to a select few in the army?

 

[ross42002]

ahhh but they protected against enemy fire.....and there rifiled bullets, not lead round balls

o and the chainmail idea might be a great idea...what does everyone think

 

[Dom Pedro II]

ross, go back and read. I never said that steel plating didn't stop bullets. In fact, I went so far as to say that the Romans would upgrade from iron to steel if they kept the armor. I defended you up to that point.

My sticking point is whether or not the usefulness of the armor can out-weigh the negative factors. And I see nothing to suggest that it does.


EDIT: There's no way chainmail would stop a bullet.

 

[ross42002]

hmmmm though saying that, i once saw a program how they tested chainmail with a leather tunic underneath and it would stop a "armour peicing" english longbow arrow......but i suppose its not the same as a bullet....

dom pedro is there anyway you can see this working, keeping the armour plateing that is

 

[ross42002]

ok here is 3rd attempt with reduced armour.......trying to comprimise lol

 

[Thorgrimm]

So then these were not issued to the general infantry? But rather to a select few in the army?

Dom, yes, they were issued mainly to the snipers and machinegunners, as in testing on the Russian Front at Riga, it was found to be too heavy and bulky to be used by the main assault forces of the Stosstruppen.
Who relied on speed and stealth to achive what armor could not, namely break the trench deadlock.



Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Dom Pedro II]

On the matter of chainmail. One of the reasons why there was a switch from chainmail to plate armor in the later Middle Ages was because of the development of gunpowder. I mean, you see that the Spanish conquistadores still used the plate armor but certainly did not revert back to chainmail. If chainmail did indeed stop bullets (or even longbow arrows most of the time) I'd imagine they would have.

But there was another important factor. Chainmail places all of its weight on the shoulders of the soldier. Plate armor distributes the weight more evenly and thus makes it easier to manage in spite of the fact that it's heavier.

With regards to the armor for the Napoleonic soldiers... *shrugs*

You can always fall back on the age old reason of ceremony. I mean, cavalry still used a chest plate at the beginning of the 19th century.

I just don't see the general infantry being supplied with steel plates. It's too costly to manufacture for 100,000 men or however large a force you need. Secondly, it does slow them down. The Germans may have been able to get around this because World War I was not nearly as mobile as the Napoleonic period and also they had the advantage of transport vehicles that could take them across many miles. The Napoleonic-era soldier had no such luxury.

 

[ross42002]

you are right about the cavalry, i was thinking of planning a roman dragoon or something or another with brestplate etc
i wish zen was here he would help somewhat if not give the finial word on the subject lol
ok we can at least aggree on the armoured helmet......lol

 

[Dom Pedro II]

There is no such thing as the final word with Xen...

 

[ross42002]

now this is one with out armour at all........and others for comparsion
i still like mumber 2 the best looks wise lol

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I don't think it's necessary to just simply go with a Napoleonic-style outfit if you remove the armor.

Actually, I think the "kilt" looks good. I mean, the Scots still used the kilts for quite some time into the 19th century, didn't they? Or was that only dress attire?

Either way, I think that you could easily go with something resembling the tunic of a velites for the torso.

 

[Straczynski]

Let me give this a try...

What about keeping only the shoulder of the armor? In this way, he'd be sort of a cross between the late middle ages' Legionarii Fulminata (or Legio Fulminator, or whatever you call him) and the recent WWI Industrial Legion...