Rome

[ElliotS]

What's wrong with the resurrection? I'd love to have a part of the game where I can throw Legions around without a care in the world. Takes a long time to get non-mounted units specialized, so Rome would be a great fit for it. Just grind them against walls and you'll have highly trained legions that will stay relevant throughout the game. They would also serve as the perfect way to piss off everyone to attack you and keep a good defense while racking up the kills. Maybe it would even make their fort building actually useful.

Seems abusable or terrible.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Seems abusable or terrible.

Yeah, if it's low chance then it'll be bad, and if it's high chance good luck conquering Rome with their instantly replenishing army. No way to kill such a civ, especially considering their bonus production. Kill an unit, it reappears next to their city, kill it again, it reappears again infinitely. The mechanic is interesting, but I can only see it if it worked only once and had 100% probability. It'd still be incredibly annoying and less preferable to other solutions but not that bad.

 

[ashendashin]

Yeah, if it's low chance then it'll be bad, and if it's high chance good luck conquering Rome with their instantly replenishing army. No way to kill such a civ, especially considering their bonus production. Kill an unit, it reappears next to their city, kill it again, it reappears again infinitely. The mechanic is interesting, but I can only see it if it worked only once and had 100% probability. It'd still be incredibly annoying and less preferable to other solutions but not that bad.

Well the chance should remain fairly low and Rome is already crazy strong. What I'm thinking is a 30-40% chance to reappear. They're limited by iron so you won't always be able to spam all you could ever want to exploit later. Once you get some highly trained legions, they'll be too valuable to lose. Definitely would be tough to get rid of early on, but why should Rome fall so easily in its prime?
Sure a low chance isn't the most fun promo in the game, but Rome is one of the strongest civs, so anything that provides heaps of fun will obviously provide too much synergy.

 

[CrazyG]

Resurrection sounds awfully grindy to play against and borderline useless as a human player. I don't lose units very often

 

[ashendashin]

Resurrection sounds awfully grindy to play against and borderline useless as a human player. I don't lose units very often

I don't lose swordsmen because I always fortify them and pull out with the aid of mounted units. It'd be fun to keep a march going and not constantly lose your units in the process. I mean really people, this is Rome! They can get an endless golden age straight from the beginning, generals pumped out like workers, and enough production for all the legions you can spam! I don't see how a chance to not die wouldn't be a good addition to Rome. The synergy would work and it's not like it would suddenly make the Legions bad. There's not much that can solve this without playing massively into Rome's favor. Make them plain better at killing things from the start and they'll feed the powerhouse even more. Defense can be even worse for exploiting it.

 

[bigcat88]

Legions just need a unique promotion, but not very strong.
bonus +10% in enemy lands?
or something like - bonus that works only when u far away from ur capital(maybe I see such promotion in other mods, I remember something like that)

 

[CrazyG]

I don't lose swordsmen because I always fortify them and pull out with the aid of mounted units. It'd be fun to keep a march going and not constantly lose your units in the process. I mean really people, this is Rome! They can get an endless golden age straight from the beginning, generals pumped out like workers, and enough production for all the legions you can spam! I don't see how a chance to not die wouldn't be a good addition to Rome. The synergy would work and it's not like it would suddenly make the Legions bad. There's not much that can solve this without playing massively into Rome's favor. Make them plain better at killing things from the start and they'll feed the powerhouse even more. Defense can be even worse for exploiting it.

If i have enough produciton for all the legions I can spam, why do I need more?

I think the downside you aren't seeing is how horrible starting next to AI Rome will be.

 

[ashendashin]

If i have enough produciton for all the legions I can spam, why do I need more?

I think the downside you aren't seeing is how horrible starting next to AI Rome will be.

Keep them marching and you'll have some die with a low enough chance, but some would inevitably survive and end up well promoted. Again it wouldn't be the best promo, but it would a nice playstyle to have Legions always moving forward.

Not a downside as far as I'm concerned. Again, why should Rome be so easy to get rid of in the early game? Even with a small buff, Legions would still be regular units for the most part. The Aztecs would remain twice as bad in the beginning. Yeah I'd expect a grind if I go in for the kill, but I don't see why civs like the Aztecs, Celts, and Mongols should hog the top seats on early dominance.

 

[Jarula]

actually that is great tu that's actually completely and totally perfect.

oh and the +10% +10% only means military action ranged attacks don't count.

 

[CrazyG]

Not a downside as far as I'm concerned. Again, why should Rome be so easy to get rid of in the early game? Even with a small buff, Legions would still be regular units for the most part. The Aztecs would remain twice as bad in the beginning. Yeah I'd expect a grind if I go in for the kill, but I don't see why civs like the Aztecs, Celts, and Mongols should hog the top seats on early dominance.

I don't think this ressurection is going to flip the table and make Rome better at fighting, its a really tiny boost for a winning civ (or a human player). I need 5 legions to die before I get on average 2 units, at that point in time will 2 legions that appear way back at my capital really do much?

Its going to be really frustrating when somebody tries the reckless march idea and low rolls the legions respawning. At 40% to respawn I still think the better play is to pull off and heal. If you march like that and have 3 units die, you get 0 to respawn 1 in 5 times. Funak made the point earlier, this needs to a really high rate for it to make sense to adjust your strategy around it.

 

[ashendashin]

To be honest I find tu's proposal to be insane. That's the sort of promo I'd expect for a Civ that desperately needs a way to snowball. With a cap it would still only make Rome snowball harder throughout the game.

 

[ashendashin]

I don't think this ressurection is going to flip the table and make Rome better at fighting, its a really tiny boost for a winning civ (or a human player). I need 5 legions to die before I get on average 2 units, at that point in time will 2 legions that appear way back at my capital really do much?

Its going to be really frustrating when somebody tries the reckless march idea and low rolls the legions respawning. At 40% to respawn I still think the better play is to pull off and heal. If you march like that and have 3 units die, you get 0 to respawn 1 in 5 times. Funak made the point earlier, this needs to a really high rate for it to make sense to adjust your strategy around it.

That's the point. To make the Legion somewhat fun to use, without making Rome as good at fighting as everyone else. I was trying to brush off your assumptions that it would make dealing with the AI the worst thing ever.

Legions have Cover and extra CS. If you're marching them into certain death then low rolls are certainly your own fault. I'm talking about things like battering into walls and pushing forward into openings that are usually far too risky. Things the AI already tends to do. A high rate would be a terrible idea as it really would open into exploits.

 

[CrazyG]

Legions have Cover and extra CS. If you're marching them into certain death then low rolls are certainly your own fault. I'm talking about things like battering into walls and pushing forward into openings that are usually far too risky. Things the AI already tends to do. A high rate would be a terrible idea as it really would open into exploits.

A low rate is a terrible idea because it doesn't do enough. Which reaches the conclusion, this is a bad idea. 40% chance is not high enough, in my opinion, to justify risking the unit. Its going to do very little to change how Rome should be played. If you're talking AI, AI Rome's biggest problem is he builds massive amounts of warriors and attacks with those, rather than wait for actually useful weapons. He is very competent when the war doesn't happen until legions

My suggestion from a few pages ago, give them Assault (+50% vs cities). Rome becomes very good at conquering, but this doesn't buff hunting or killing units. Simple, thematic, and probably fun. Combined with cover, you can take the shock path while still having the benefits of the drill path.

 

[ashendashin]

A low rate is a terrible idea because it doesn't do enough. Which reaches the conclusion, this is a bad idea. 40% chance is not high enough, in my opinion, to justify risking the unit. Its going to do very little to change how Rome should be played. If you're talking AI, AI Rome's biggest problem is he builds massive amounts of warriors and attacks with those, rather than wait for actually useful weapons. He is very competent when the war doesn't happen until legions

My suggestion from a few pages ago, give them Assault (+50% vs cities). Rome becomes very good at conquering, but this doesn't buff hunting or killing units. Simple, thematic, and probably fun. Combined with cover, you can take the shock path while still having the benefits of the drill path.

See the issue here is that I'm advocating for a small, fun little buff that doesn't change Rome all that much. You guys seem to think that the Legion -a perfectly reasonable unit for a civ as strong as Rome- needs to be unique like everybody else, as if free yields on kills for everyone isn't unique enough. Give them a chance to not die and it would be a nice addition that doesn't make them snowball much harder.

Snowball. Rome really, really doesn't need such an easy time taking cities. Swordsman are by no means weak on the city taking front if you make enough of them. I avoid playing Rome most of the time because spamming Colosseum's gives insane gold output if you play it right. I guess I play with too many civs, but this really is a fickle thing from my point of view.

 

[CrazyG]

See the issue here is that I'm advocating for a small, fun little buff that doesn't change Rome all that much.

And I'm advocating against an extremely low impact, complex, random feature from being added.

 

[ashendashin]

And I'm advocating against an extremely low impact, complex, random feature from being added.

And I don't see it as extremely low impact, complex, or random. I suppose you believe it to be totally useless since you're used to never risking your units. As a warmonger in most games, I totally disagree with you on this. Rome simply doesn't need that mindset of no risk scenarios. They can afford the losses better than almost every civ.

Edit:
Also keep in mind that pushing lines and sacrificing units is a totally viable tactic that the higher difficulty AI always does since they can afford the losses. I've taken up on it recently and it can be quite effective if you're looking for immediate gain. Having them not die all the time would be nice.

 

[ElliotS]

And I'm advocating against an extremely low impact, complex, random feature from being added.

I agree really hard right here.

I think capturing UUs is a good idea, or some bonus on roads.

Instead of city assault, why not a promotion that gives "+75% damage to units inside of forts, citadels or cities. Gain culture equal to 20% of damage dealt to cities." if you want to go that direction.

 

[CrazyG]

Instead of city assault, why not a promotion that gives "+75% damage to units inside of forts, citadels or cities. Gain culture equal to 20% of damage dealt to cities." if you want to go that direction

I was just making simple suggestion. Assault already exists

And I don't see it as extremely low impact, complex, or random. I suppose you believe it to be totally useless since you're used to never risking your units. As a warmonger in most games, I totally disagree with you on this. Rome simply doesn't need that mindset of no risk scenarios. They can afford the losses better than almost every civ.

Edit:
Also keep in mind that pushing lines and sacrificing units is a totally viable tactic that the higher difficulty AI always does since they can afford the losses. I've taken up on it recently and it can be quite effective if you're looking for immediate gain. Having them not die all the time would be nice.

Its not that I don't risk units, I do sometimes. I'm playing a game as Rome right now, and I'm pretty sure if I had this feature for this game, literally nothing would change. I seriously doubt I will lose a single Legion, and that isn't because I'm being risk averse, its because its a Legion. It has the highest CS of any unit until medieval era and cover, how often do Legions die in your games? I don't see why you would put synergy with dieing on such a hard to kill unit

 

[Txurce]

I was just making simple suggestion.

Good luck with that.

 

[ashendashin]

Its not that I don't risk units, I do sometimes. I'm playing a game as Rome right now, and I'm pretty sure if I had this feature for this game, literally nothing would change. I seriously doubt I will lose a single Legion, and that isn't because I'm being risk averse, its because its a Legion. It has the highest CS of any unit until medieval era and cover, how often do Legions die in your games? I don't see why you would put synergy with dieing on such a hard to kill unit

I guess I can see your point for regular games as a human player. Legions are just that hardy. Especially so with them being best used in citadels. This is where my bias towards larger games comes up, since going deep into enemy territory with swordsmen pretty much never happens (without plenty of support) and I thought resurrection would work well for that. It also seems better suited to declare war en masse for more units to kill, but again, citadels are enough for that. For regular games, I was only considering that it would benefit the AI a bit to make them less easy to get rid of early on. I was thinking about removing the iron requirement and the CS boost but...that wouldn't be great would it? Honestly, everything proposed just sounds crazy overpowered or plain boring. Only way I can see anything here working is by messing with the other bits of Rome, which I don't think is necessary for a unit that's decent enough but boring.