Rome

[Aldebaran1997]

I am severely underwhelmed by the GG-generation of Colloseums.
GGs have very rapidly declining usefulness.
The first one is obviously great. The second one is still good, the third might help you cover a secondary border. Then you start to snipe good tiles from close CS, then they start stockpiling in your capitol. Once you have more than 10, you start using them as mediocre tile improvements in your lands. And still they pile on...
The thing is, you get these bonus points if you fight - but if you fight, you get enough GGs anyway, so there is no benefit.
The admirals are nice though, as they can always be cashed in for something useful.

That said, I think the problem lies less with Rome, but rather with the GG, whose value drop so quickly.

I agree with this pov of Rome. Actually GG generating bonus fits well with Swedish UA, not Roman.(pov of UA synergy)
I wonder that Colosseum's GG bonus replace with tourism boost(Gladiator, sports) or influence for all known CS.(display their military strength by triumphing over their enemy)

 

[tu_79]

I am severely underwhelmed by the GG-generation of Colloseums.
GGs have very rapidly declining usefulness.
The first one is obviously great. The second one is still good, the third might help you cover a secondary border. Then you start to snipe good tiles from close CS, then they start stockpiling in your capitol. Once you have more than 10, you start using them as mediocre tile improvements in your lands. And still they pile on...
The thing is, you get these bonus points if you fight - but if you fight, you get enough GGs anyway, so there is no benefit.
The admirals are nice though, as they can always be cashed in for something useful.

That said, I think the problem lies less with Rome, but rather with the GG, whose value drop so quickly.

One word, friend, Lebensraum!

 

[ripple01]

I'm getting ready to start a game as Rome, and it seems Progress and Authority could both be very solid openings to take advantage of their uniques. What do people usually choose, and why?

 

[Funak]

I'm getting ready to start a game as Rome, and it seems Progress and Authority could both be very solid openings to take advantage of their uniques. What do people usually choose, and why?

Both are fine. You're probably going to employ about the same style no matter what tree you pick only difference is that you're going to have to put more effort into building buildings if you go authority, and more effort into building units if you go progress.

The main advantage of Authority is that you're going to have an easier time waging early wars and using your unique unit.
The main advantage of Progress is that you don't have to do that early attack, you still could, but you're not exactly forced to the way you are with Authority.

 

[Charos]

Both are fine. You're probably going to employ about the same style no matter what tree you pick only difference is that you're going to have to put more effort into building buildings if you go authority, and more effort into building units if you go progress.

The main advantage of Authority is that you're going to have an easier time waging early wars and using your unique unit.
The main advantage of Progress is that you don't have to do that early attack, you still could, but you're not exactly forced to the way you are with Authority.

I frequently will even do both. As Rome, I usually want to expand to fill the available space and then transition into conquest. Religion, city states, and tourism/culture don't interest me much, so the Classical era trees aren't very attractive. I normally cap out Progress, then go Authority, then Imperialism into Autocracy. Works pretty well and makes my conquered cities get up and running extremely quickly.

 

[Funak]

I frequently will even do both. As Rome, I usually want to expand to fill the available space and then transition into conquest. Religion, city states, and tourism/culture don't interest me much, so the Classical era trees aren't very attractive. I normally cap out Progress, then go Authority, then Imperialism into Autocracy. Works pretty well and makes my conquered cities get up and running extremely quickly.

Going Authority/Progress -> Piety -> Imperialism is pretty much superior in all ways, the piety-tree is crazy for wide expansion/conquest.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I frequently will even do both. As Rome, I usually want to expand to fill the available space and then transition into conquest. Religion, city states, and tourism/culture don't interest me much, so the Classical era trees aren't very attractive. I normally cap out Progress, then go Authority, then Imperialism into Autocracy. Works pretty well and makes my conquered cities get up and running extremely quickly.

Piety is not really only for religion though. For a wide player, it provides far, far better yields. IIRC when completed Piety provides 8/10 Science and 6/8 production depending on coastal status, 4 food, 3 culture, 2 gold, 1Happiness, 20% gold and lots of faith in every city. You lose on a big amount of yields by going Authority instead of Piety and only gain 10% stronger troops (just build in Morale promotion city) and 20% unit heal which is admittedly awesome, as well as -50% road cost I suppose - but who cares, after the connection nerf I don't build many roads even with Authority unless I fear getting 10+ unhappiness, which doesn't really happen.

Not to mention Piety would also encourage you to build some Temples which can easily turn into Great People/buildings from whomever converted you later on.

I'd always go Progress/Authority into Piety.

 

[Stalker0]

I have learned the error of my ways at this point. I have learned the power of piety, it is definitely better than going Progress/Authority.

 

[Charos]

Piety is not really only for religion though. For a wide player, it provides far, far better yields. IIRC when completed Piety provides 8/10 Science and 6/8 production depending on coastal status, 4 food, 3 culture, 2 gold, 1Happiness, 20% gold and lots of faith in every city. You lose on a big amount of yields by going Authority instead of Piety and only gain 10% stronger troops (just build in Morale promotion city) and 20% unit heal which is admittedly awesome, as well as -50% road cost I suppose - but who cares, after the connection nerf I don't build many roads even with Authority unless I fear getting 10+ unhappiness, which doesn't really happen.

Not to mention Piety would also encourage you to build some Temples which can easily turn into Great People/buildings from whomever converted you later on.

I'd always go Progress/Authority into Piety.

This is a good point. I hadn't really compared the yields side by side, just assumed (wrongly, I suppose) that Piety wasn't worth it if I couldn't found my own religion.

To bring things back on topic, I guess with Rome it would be best to choose Progress if the map has a lot of open space for you to settle, to boost your infrastructure development, but Authority would win out on more crowded maps where an early war of conquest is likely.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think Legion is a a very lame UU. It's just a Swordsman with +2 CS (so a mere 13~% more CS, less impact than any single promotion) and Cover, he doesn't feel unique at all especially considering Cover's not worth as much after several ranged nerfs especially since early game only ranged stuff like Dromons or anything from Incas and Mayas atlatls poses any sort of threat for even a regular Swordsman, whereas Catapults do hit harder but can always be dealt with very easily. I think I use the road-building ability once in every three Rome games, rarely finishing more than a single tile before going to fight another war. It's just a bad idea to not fight with a designated fighting unit on a civ that gets tons of stuff for fighting when you could be building the road with Workers and I have never built a single fort with Legion. Those two abilities wouldn't make much of a difference were they to be removed as they are. I never fear AI's Rome, the Legions can be dealt with by regular Horsemen/Swordsmen without any problems.
Sure, Rome did get an indirect buff with Citadels being buffed, but Rome has +3 Production from UB and an imminent +15% Prod to buildings as well as easy Golden Ages (once the Colosseum scales a bit) so getting Barracks/Armouries up is not hard anyway, especially in the new patch where supply is very lenient if someone likes the right buildings.

Suggestion: Free Drill for Legions on top of all they get now, perhaps at the cost of 1/2 CS if it's too much (which I doubt). Fits because Roman army was very well organised and at least this way, it'd be two free easy-to-get promos instead of just a single situational one which seems pretty unique. Alternatively, some other promotion could be given to them instead. It'd be cool if Legions could build roads and forts in half the time, but I guess that's not necessary if they get a combat buff, it'd just make that part of them more useful.

 

[tu_79]

I like road promotion for Legion. It's very thematic, and I make Legions lay roads in truce times. It doesn't need to be an astounding unit, the roman UA kind of makes for it.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I like road promotion for Legion. It's very thematic, and I make Legions lay roads in truce times. It doesn't need to be an astounding unit, the roman UA kind of makes for it.

It's thematic but barely useful, at least for me. I maximalise fighting times and AI really likes roads to the point they're almost certainly there if I conquer stuff, and early game war is a must once Colosseums are up, and Masonry is better to be rushed than Ironworking. Giving him free Drill or something like that wouldn't make him astounding, he'd still not be anywhere near best UUs when some get several unique promotions an unit can't get otherwise or simply great, late promos, it'd just make him more appealing and less of an instant turn off. He'd probably still be worse than Mohawks considering Mohawk gets a unique promo and can be spammed.

And Roman UA is either very good or just good in an environment where nearly every UA is great. A big part of the UA, "stealing" UBs becomes irrelevant against many, many civs. If you fight against Japan, Polynesia, France, etc. (Anyone with defense building/Barracks-type/national wonder/UI/something very late/Monument), you won't steal anything extraordinary, just more regular buildings that, sure, make the city valuable faster, but there are way stronger UAs. There are also stronger UBs. Sure, both are rather neat and good (provided the enemies even construct buildings, last game I got little more than Shrines from conquering my continent), but it doesn't validate the UU being so weak and feeling so underwhelming.

 

[Charos]

What about a unique promotion that gives them +CS for each adjacent Legion? Would be very thematic, though it may step on the Hoplite's toes a bit.

 

[CrazyG]

It's thematic but barely useful, at least for me. I maximalise fighting times and AI really likes roads to the point they're almost certainly there if I conquer stuff, and early game war is a must once Colosseums are up, and Masonry is better to be rushed than Ironworking. Giving him free Drill or something like that wouldn't make him astounding, he'd still not be anywhere near best UUs when some get several unique promotions an unit can't get otherwise or simply great, late promos, it'd just make him more appealing and less of an instant turn off. He'd probably still be worse than Mohawks considering Mohawk gets a unique promo and can be spammed.

And Roman UA is either very good or just good in an environment where nearly every UA is great. A big part of the UA, "stealing" UBs becomes irrelevant against many, many civs. If you fight against Japan, Polynesia, France, etc. (Anyone with defense building/Barracks-type/national wonder/UI/something very late/Monument), you won't steal anything extraordinary, just more regular buildings that, sure, make the city valuable faster, but there are way stronger UAs. There are also stronger UBs. Sure, both are rather neat and good (provided the enemies even construct buildings, last game I got little more than Shrines from conquering my continent), but it doesn't validate the UU being so weak and feeling so underwhelming.

Stealing unique buildings isn't the meat of the UA. Conquered cities have great infrastructure relative to their populations which translates to less unhappiness. I love the retaining building aspect and I've never cared about getting another civ's UB. I don't see how war is necessary after colosseums either, Rome makes a great progress civ and I often wait to go to war. Why not let the AI build stuff for you and take his cities in medieval or Renaissance, when your UA will be worth several hundred production per city capture.

I do agree that Legions lean towards boring, but I don't see how having drill instead of cover would make them any more exciting. The roads are a nice perk that do get some use every game for me

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Stealing unique buildings isn't the meat of the UA. Conquered cities have great infrastructure relative to their populations which translates to less unhappiness. I love the retaining building aspect and I've never cared about getting another civ's UB. I don't see how war is necessary after colosseums either, Rome makes a great progress civ and I often wait to go to war. Why not let the AI build stuff for you and take his cities in medieval or Renaissance, when your UA will be worth several hundred production per city capture.

I do agree that Legions lean towards boring, but I don't see how having drill instead of cover would make them any more exciting. The roads are a nice perk that do get some use every game for me

I didn't say Drill instead of Cover, but on top of it. Having 3 basic skills (Shock for being a Sword, Drill, Cover) would at least make them a jack of all trades who can get either Drill III or Shock III without any problems. They'd still not be the shiniest tool in the shed even with that because having an unique, good promotion is far better than a regular one everyone can eventually get, though at least Rome would have their Legions start decently strong with way more options as they'd reach Drill III for Blitz way faster if Rome wanted that. Sure, I agree an unique promotion would be more interesting, but I don't have any ideas which wouldn't overlap with something.

If you wait until medieval or renaissance with your true wars, then it seems you are not encouraged to use Legions to fight at all, which further proves my point that they're a bad UU. Building roads is nice if you don't fight at all I suppose, but if that's the case you could just build a worker who'd also get a Mine, a Village or a Farm up at the same maintenance cost. Sure, you get something to defend you in case of a war declaration, but it's not that expensive for non-Rome to have both a worker and a Swordsman/Horsie. And sure, if you do wait so much to use your UA then yeah, you'll gain more. The problem is it'd mean you've been gaining close to nothing from your UA for 2-3 eras and some production won't compensate that. Rome isn't strong in Science, isn't particularly strong in Culture (+2C compared to regular Arena when almost all UBs get +2C and/or way more) and all the bonuses aside from +15% Prod towards buildings in Rome are warfare focused, so why wait that long when rushing a Colosseum in the conquered city combined with Authority's production means the city is going to be a worthwhile member of the Imperium soon enough anyway?

 

[tu_79]

You are underestimating the power of capturing a full working city. And Legions roads are not intended for no fights, on the contrary, you use the Legion because you are building a tactical road far away from your civilized lands. Instead of protecting your worker, you just use a Legion. It's interesting enough to keep it. If you want to buff Legions, would it be possible to start with +15XP?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

You are underestimating the power of capturing a full working city. And Legions roads are not intended for no fights, on the contrary, you use the Legion because you are building a tactical road far away from your civilized lands. Instead of protecting your worker, you just use a Legion. It's interesting enough to keep it. If you want to buff Legions, would it be possible to start with +15XP?

I'm not saying the road building should be removed, just that I do not find it very useful. And yeah, capturing a fully working city is very good, but a lot of buildings will be gone anyway, you can't ensure the AI builds buildings/doesn't dip heavily into -GPT and stops progressing scientificially and the ability is not good enough a civ that gets almost nothing from peace should wait 2-3 eras for it when Authority + Colosseum's Production can get the buildings AI didn't get up (even if it only has a Shrine) sooner rather than later, all the while killed units give you a citadel to steal land with and possibly a Golden Age. Rome's UA is a very strong ability, but it's very far from being the strongest in the game unless you manage to steal really good UBs but that's incredibly situational and enemy civ dependent. Even then I'd likely rate the likes of Harun's/Sejong's/Dido's ability far above that anyway as they're reliable and almost always either way better early or superior in the long run anyway because only a few of your cities will have the stolen Roman UB, even less if the AI for some reason doesn't construct it in some cities, like Acropolis which I have problems finding even when Alexander is in medieval.
I'm not certain about tactical roads. Considering they take time to be built while stealing GPT which can't really be afforded early game (excluding +3 Gold monopoly starts), I'd rather just position my units well before engaging with my offense force so they only need a minimal amount of time before they kill. Takes a few turns, but building the road would most likely take more time anyway and if Legions are in such a position they're building a road near your enemy, they could just be attacking the enemy army instead. Sure, there's times I admit it'd be useful to do, but it's a rather situational thing that also takes time which sort of defeats the point. I did use them with workers, but that was IIRC before city connections and markets (or early gold in general) got nerfed to what they are now. I can't afford them and since their construction also costs me precious turns, they're not worth it very often. Ocassionally I will make one or two, but that's a rare occurence for me to find that worthwhile.

I don't really like the +15XP idea, a free promotion would be better because it wouldn't fall off as hard. 15XP is just a mere three hits for a melee unit and is more boring than a promotion because of how easy it is to get such small amount of XP for melee, whereas a free Drill promotion doesn't steal a level up, is better in the long run (and most often early on too) and opens up more possibilities.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm not saying the road building should be removed, just that I do not find it very useful. And yeah, capturing a fully working city is very good, but a lot of buildings will be gone anyway, you can't ensure the AI builds buildings/doesn't dip heavily into -GPT and stops progressing scientificially and the ability is not good enough a civ that gets almost nothing from peace should wait 2-3 eras for it when Authority + Colosseum's Production can get the buildings AI didn't get up (even if it only has a Shrine) sooner rather than later, all the while killed units give you a citadel to steal land with and possibly a Golden Age. Rome's UA is a very strong ability, but it's very far from being the strongest in the game unless you manage to steal really good UBs but that's incredibly situational and enemy civ dependent. Even then I'd likely rate the likes of Harun's/Sejong's/Dido's ability far above that anyway as they're reliable and almost always either way better early or superior in the long run anyway because only a few of your cities will have the stolen Roman UB, even less if the AI for some reason doesn't construct it in some cities, like Acropolis which I have problems finding even when Alexander is in medieval.
I'm not certain about tactical roads. Considering they take time to be built while stealing GPT which can't really be afforded early game (excluding +3 Gold monopoly starts), I'd rather just position my units well before engaging with my offense force so they only need a minimal amount of time before they kill. Takes a few turns, but building the road would most likely take more time anyway and if Legions are in such a position they're building a road near your enemy, they could just be attacking the enemy army instead. Sure, there's times I admit it'd be useful to do, but it's a rather situational thing that also takes time which sort of defeats the point. I did use them with workers, but that was IIRC before city connections and markets (or early gold in general) got nerfed to what they are now. I can't afford them and since their construction also costs me precious turns, they're not worth it very often. Ocassionally I will make one or two, but that's a rare occurence for me to find that worthwhile.

I don't really like the +15XP idea, a free promotion would be better because it wouldn't fall off as hard. 15XP is just a mere three hits for a melee unit and is more boring than a promotion because of how easy it is to get such small amount of XP for melee, whereas a free Drill promotion doesn't steal a level up, is better in the long run (and most often early on too) and opens up more possibilities.

You seem very focused on grabbing unique buildings. I don't see why, I mean its cool if it happens and very thematic if you manage to conquer Greece, but you don't need it for the UA to be good. Just ancient and classical era unique building can reach 1000 production in instant gain on city capture, that is an insanely powerful ability. It gets even more powerful throughout the game

Likewise,15% production towards buildings already in the capital isn't super exciting either but its very powerful. I think Legions fall in the same boat. There isn't anything wildly unique about them; they have simple but effective boosts. 2 CS is a lot on a 15 CS unit and cover is great for front line units. Its nice to have the heaviest of heavy units; I hate fighting legions.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

You seem very focused on grabbing unique buildings. I don't see why, I mean its cool if it happens and very thematic if you manage to conquer Greece, but you don't need it for the UA to be good. Just ancient and classical era unique building can reach 1000 production in instant gain on city capture, that is an insanely powerful ability. It gets even more powerful throughout the game

Likewise,15% production towards buildings already in the capital isn't super exciting either but its very powerful. I think Legions fall in the same boat. There isn't anything wildly unique about them; they have simple but effective boosts. 2 CS is a lot on a 15 CS unit and cover is great for front line units. Its nice to have the heaviest of heavy units; I hate fighting legions.

I think you misunderstood me yet again. I've never said Roman UA is not powerful or that Unique Building steal is a must, but I did state it's required for Rome to be at its best with the UA's power and even then, the likes of Carthage/Arabia/Korea/probably-others can have arguably a stronger UA anyway even if we assume the UB is stolen. And no, you're not stealing 1000 Production in ancient era, all the buildings combined there do not equate 1000 Production even if you add Barracks, Walls, Monuments etc in, and those get removed anyway as I doubt Market + Shrine + Council + Granary (Stone Works - rare) + (Well - uncommon, outright a bad building to get in ancient era unless you gave Gold monopolies) + Herbalist (not every city) would equal 1000 Production unless you're on Marathon, in which case 1000 Production is likely not much at all.

Even in classical you'd need to play on Epic on a river city to get that much if we disregard stuff that gets removed always, and you'd need to assume not only that your RNG is so bad, every single building the AI has built would get removed without the UA while IIRC there's like a 25%, 33% or 50% chance for every building that it is kept but also that the AI has built every single available building as soon as it was available when this is often far from being the case. If we take all that into account, you have a point by late Medieval/Renaissance, but in those eras even post-nerf Denmark that's probably turned from top tier into merely high or mid tier will kill enough units to get way more Production and Culture than that just to reduce the enemy's unit spam so they can get access to attacking the city provided they're wide.

+15% Production towards buildings is not bad, but not powerful enough I'd want to stay at peace for 3 eras as you've suggested when everything else in Rome benefits from fighting and conquest. I find myself often in a situation where my capital and other ciites Legions are awful. They're not the heaviest of heavy units, a Mohawk has only 1 CS less and costs no Iron while it's outright superior if any forests are near as it gets IIRC a +33% CS boost there, meaning it's even better even at taking ranged fire if that is the case. The Indonesian Kris have some insane promotions and can be way heavier too while also having a worthwhile, unique promotion that gets transfered upon upgrade. My point is, if you have problems fighting Legions, you'd have problems fighting regular Swordsmen too, what they get is one situational free promotion that doesn't matter much and +13% CS more than Sword which is less impactful than nearly any promotion in the game. My Horsemen deal with them easily every single time, I just get Horsies and once I accumulate enough XP they get to really good promos, Legions are not a problem at all which is also the case with Swordsmen. Kris are a way bigger problem especially considering crazy stuff like Ancestral Protection that makes them really big nuisances (+30% defense +5% attack promo iirc. Better when facing both archers and regular units, it's also kept after promotion).

+2 CS really is not a lot at this point, it's a mere 13% more compared to Sword. Earlier and easier to spam UU Hoplite IIRC gets +3 CS (30% more than Spear) as well as two decent unique promotions while Greek UA and UB aren't inferior at all, Immortal gets +2 CS just like Legion but it's 20% more and has two really good promotions, same with Pict who also gets +2CS (20%), 2 unique promos AND insane Faith generation IIRC.

 

[tu_79]

Yet Rome seems to be doing things well. Whenever I see them they are in good shape. Usually conquering some neighbor.