Rose-colored glasses?

[FearlessLeader2]

posted by allan
An older person generally has had more time to test his views with real-life experience, and refine them (or even totally revolutionize them) as he sees necessary.

Now I don't mean to be singling out allan, many others are guilty as well. I may have made similar statements in the past.

It seems to me that many, and perhaps all, of us have a tendency to ignore human nature when we make sweeping comments about philosophic principles. In examining the above quote, we can see that it ignores common wisdom. In age we as a race more often find intractibility rather than flexibility.

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

"Dyed in the wool."

"There's no fool like an old fool."

In spite of this and other conventional wisdom, allan grants to the elderly an attributation of open-mindedness hithertofore unheard of, and does it in a tone that indicates he expects no arguments to be brought forth. I have seen numerous other statements made, in support of many speakers' equally ludicrous positions on any number of topics, that are equally invalidated by conventional wisdom, and I have seen the same deafening silence in response.

I would like to ask that everyone please take the time to look at what they are saying, and if you realize that you are talking out your ass, to please hit the delete key a few times, and spare us all. If you want to drag some questionable quotes out of the archives from me, that's fine. I know I've done it too. All I'm asking for is that we ALL take the time, before hitting the Submit button, to make sure we're not saying things that are in direct opposition to common sense.

 

[allan]

FL2, who peed in your cereal?!?

I don't think I said that old people were necessarily open-minded.... I DID say that they have had time, throughout the course of their lifetimes, to test and hone their viewpoints through the filter of life experience. These two things aren't the same.

I.e. when a person is young they tend to at first hold opinions that they were "taught" by those they grew up around. Then around adolescence they rebel, sometimes with good reasons but usually for the sake of rebellion, and adapt views and positions that are contrary to their parents' or other authority figures. Then as they get into adulthood and actually find themselves struggling in "real world" situations with real responsibility, they may start seeing that some of their wild youthful ideas are flawed and unworkable in the context of their everyday problems.... This process can continue throughout adulthood. At some point a person may become "set" in their opinions and ways, but ideally this happens only after many years of struggling, testing, and fine-tuning based on things they have learnt thus far.

And while many old people may be totally close-minded, many other old people DO continue to learn and refine some of their ideas based on fresher data that conflicts with it--my grandfather being one of them. Oh he's pretty much going to be a "new deal" democrat (socially conservative but economically "liberal") until he dies, coming as he did from a poor background in the FDR era, but he DOES listen to other arguments, and can even see the validity of some of them. And so I imagine he may "fine-tune" his thinking subtly to accept some points, even if he doesn't actually embrace them. Some of his views indeed HAVE changed a lot--he used to be totally against interracial dating and marriage for example, now he has no problem with it--I suppose having seen that one of his daughters (my aunt) has a happy marriage with a black man. He learned from life experience....

The "old curmudgeon" stereotype of the elderly is just that--a stereotype. May apply to many, but not to all.

But even so, an old person "set in their ways" wasn't ALWAYS that way, and likely the ways he ends up being set in came from many years of life experience that to them "proved" their validity and soundness. But these views weren't necessarily the same ones they started adulthood with--they could even be radically different from them in many ways.

There's a reason why conventional thinking also tells us to "respect our elders"--because THEY have seen more, experienced more, and generally have had more "practice" with that game called "life".... You can learn a lot from old people, and I pity the fools who reject the counsel of their elders out of hand. But they, too, will learn eventually.

"In spite of this and other conventional wisdom, allan grants to the elderly an attributation of open-mindedness hithertofore unheard of,"

As I pointed out, I did no such thing. Either you honestly misread me, or else you are looking to pick a fight with me out of some "jihad"-like vendetta. (And maybe I WAS a bit too hard on you in that fundy debate, even if I think you invited it.) I would advise you that pursuing the latter course (the vendetta) would not be wise.... Actually I would probably just walk away though if you wanted a fight--it ain't like I exactly GIVE a sh*t....

"and does it in a tone that indicates he expects no arguments to be brought forth."

I NEVER have such an expectation. Nothing I say opinion-wise is above argument.... Nothing ANYONE says opinion-wise is above argument. You should know that by now.

"I would like to ask that everyone please take the time to look at what they are saying, and if you realize that you are talking out your ass, to please hit the delete key a few times, and spare us all."

I suggest you follow your own advice here. Read again EXACTLY what I said in the post you are talking about, not just what you fantasized I said.... And I don't know how I invited such a hostile tone from you. Remember, I can either be nice, or smack you around rhetorically myself (remember that last long discussion I ended up finishing?). I prefer nice though--don't you?

But you know I can play the mean game quite well too. But why should we reasonable grown adults do THAT? SHEESH....

 

[Hamlet]

Why exactly did you feel this warranted a seperate thread?

 

[allan]

"Why exactly did you feel this warranted a seperate thread?"

I don't know either.

Nor do I care. It's HIS problem, not mine....

 

[gjts00]

I think that FL2 has brought up a great point. As well, it was/is completely appropriate (even respectful) of him to do it in a seperate thread. Rather than jacking someone else's by completely changing the issue at hand. Which BTW, is better known as spaming a thread. And quite rude I might add.

Now, I don't know what kind of altercation you two (FL2 & Allan) had in the thread that lead to the creation of this one (and I really don't care either). But, the only type of person that I can see having a problem with this thread, are those who are unable to take accountability for their actions and realize that they aren't perfect after all. What a shocking moment that would be for some around here...


I'm not without sin on this issue. But I have my own personalized version of the golden rule...Do onto others as they do onto you. So, when someone else attempts an affront to that which I hold dear, I respond in kind (be it on these forums or anywhere else). As I don't believe in turning the other cheek (that's just a good way to get yourself kicked in the a$$, IMO).

 

[FearlessLeader2]

allan-
All snipes and snubs aside, this was not meant as an attack on you. I even apologized in advance for choosing one of your quotes. I even went as far as to invite people to post some of mine if they felt the need. This was an open letter to the whole forum, and was meant as a global constructive criticism, nothing more. You do not need to get defensive. What I read from your post (and I'll edit this one in a minute after I go review it again just to be sure) was exactly what I said above. If there was a failure to either communicate or comprehend, then please try to be clearer in the future. The same goes to everyone else. I like to think that my reading comprehension is pretty good. The people who grade ACTs seemed to think it was, they scored me as perfect in that regard.

Ok, here is the entire original post:

Yep. I'm 33 and a libertarian, and I know people of my age group that are hard-core fundy conservatives, Greens, and every shade in between....

Same with other age groups. My maternal grandfather is a liberal democrat, and although I disagree with him on a lot of things he has FAR more years under his belt than I, and I treat his opinions with respect because of that.... Many other people his age are conservative, or libertarian like me too. Nader's getting "up there" in years too....

Age I think can be more indicative of the QUALITY OF SUBSTANCE in an argument (with MANY exceptions, however!), rather than one's core beliefs and views themselves.... An older person generally has had more time to test his views with real-life experience, and refine them (or even totally revolutionize them) as he sees necessary.

The part in bold-faced type is what elicited this thread. These four words, tacked onto the end of this statement, are what caused me to object. Other than this, I have no real objections to what you said. Elderly people HAVE had a great deal of time to think about things, and experienced a great deal more, and therefore have probably come up with what, in their PoV, is a very stable and workable mindset. But these same facts tell against them being either willing or able to accept change.

_________________________________________________
To all-
Since I am guilty of some rather long sentences, and it is sometimes difficult to follow what these deep-lunged statements are attempting to say, I will offer this courtesy to all for whom English is a 2nd (or 3rd, 4th, etc...) language; a free and non-expiring license to ask me to re-word anything that they have failed to comprehend which I have 'penned'. The sad thing is, the previous sentence to this, despite its considerable length, is grammatically perfect, and this one is no shrimp itself. Sorry.

gjts00-
I don't think you've ever agreed with anything I've ever posted in recorded history. Suddenly, I am struck with the notion that I was wrong to start this thread... Seriously though, thank you for your support.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

"But I have my own personalized version of the golden rule...Do onto others as they do onto you."

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post, but my personalized version is a bit different:

"Do unto others as they would do unto you, but do it harder, more often and quicker."

 

[FearlessLeader2]

I always thought it went:

"**** them before they **** you."

 

[Magnus]

I read an article once where it showed a clear trend that the older you get the more close-minded you get - young people are far more open to new ideas. In fact a young person is more easily convinced to learn in a new way and will be far more likely to change their views with the appearance of new evidence, whereas an older person will most likely ONLY accept evidence that SUPPORTS their position, simply disregarding anything to the contrary as wrong or mistaken without further ado.

maybe this is why presidents of the USA have an age requirement....

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Ok, who swiped Magnus' account information?

 

[Magnus]

Chaos Theory states we would have to eventually agree on something.

 

[floppa21]

As we get older, we become more stubborn and set in our ways. This is true. But the point here was "Experience" I believe. "Maturity." Oh well.

I rule this thread! You all are chumps and I am the man! Can't tell me nothin! I rule this thread! FL2, ... Where's a smoochy smoochy smilie when you need one.

 

[allan]

me: "An older person generally has had more time to test his views with real-life experience, and refine them (or even totally revolutionize them) as he sees necessary."

FL2: "The part in bold-faced type [the phrase "as he sees necessary"]is what elicited this thread. These four words, tacked onto the end of this statement, are what caused me to object."

Notice that the phrase you highlighted comes with the phrase "has had more time" followed by the infinitive phrase it was included in, and hence does not refer to the PRESENT, but to the period of time leading up to (or toward) the present. Thus I was talking about what he has done in the past to lead up to his present knowledge, which he may or may not (in the present) be "set" or "inflexible" in. Meaning that he wasn't necessarily so inflexible in the time leading up to that. Get it?

I'm not sure whether the tense of this phrase within the infinitive phrase should have agreed with the governing verb phrase "has had more time", i.e. "An older person generally has had more time to test his views with real life experience, and [to] refine them as he HAS SEEN necessary," but I don't think such tense agreement is necessary there. I may be mistaken.

Anyway, I now see that this probably WAS an honest misreading on your part, and nothing contrived to pick a fight against me. So we're fine then.

 

[Ren]

Originally posted by Magnus
Chaos Theory states we would have to eventually agree on something.

once again, we think alike brother *adds Magnus to buddy list*

 

[gjts00]

With all due respect Allan, i think that you're reading too much into what FL2 intended with this thread. Granted, he singled you out as an example (probably because it was the most recent example in his mind). But, he also made it no secret that he was not just picking on you. It's rather plain to see this IMO.


An active poster who doesn't go a little (or a lot in some cases, present company included) too far out sometimes is a rare animal to be sure. So there's no need to keep splitting hairs over the exact words of your post that was quoted above. We're all guilty of getting out of line from time to time.



P.S. Happy holidays all. Regardless of which invisible man you may (or may not) pray to.

 

[allan]

"An active poster who doesn't go a little (or a lot in some cases, present company included) too far out sometimes is a rare animal to be sure. So there's no need to keep splitting hairs over the exact words of your post that was quoted above. We're all guilty of getting out of line from time to time."

You're right.... I shouldn't have taken anything personally from this. And also right that we can all get out of line in here--myself included.

And forgive the dry grammar lesson--I used to be an English teacher so I tend to forget that that stuff can be boring....

Everything's cool though....