Democratic Party direction post-Harris

Dems achieving goals... how's that going?
This again doesn't seem to be relevant to "taking on people who take them further from their goals".

Let's flip it around then. The Democrats should embrace those on the left, wholly and fully. I mean, they're not achieving their goals, so a change is needed. Right?
 
This again doesn't seem to be relevant to "taking on people who take them further from their goals".

Let's flip it around then. The Democrats should embrace those on the left, wholly and fully. I mean, they're not achieving their goals, so a change is needed. Right?
Broaden the collation yeah and make the messenging impactful/meaningful to the largest swaths of the population.
 
Broaden the collation yeah and make the messenging impactful/meaningful to the largest swaths of the population.
That's not what I said. I said, if the Democrats need to include someone like RFK given all the things GoodEnoughForMe pointed out, because they're not achieving their goals, then what's the harm in doing the effective opposite?

Who cares if some leftists are personally dislikeable, or have weird opinions? That isn't the concern here.
 
Dude come on. RFK is a grifter. He has multiple instances of sexual assault on his record. He’s staunchly anti vax, anti science, and pro Putin. Of course Harris wants no part.
Inconsistent, she campaigned with Liz Cheney for about a month, explicitly welcoming Dick. Who is arguably the single most damaging American politician post Vietnam.

Shoulda taken RFK's call. It would've demonstrated that the tent is wide enough to include not only right wing establishment figures like Cheney, but also those outside it. Not doing so sent the message "nah we won't talk to you if you don't follow us on covid" when of course about 35-45% of the electorate, uh, doesn't like those same pieties.
 
Inconsistent, she campaigned with Liz Cheney for about a month, explicitly welcoming Dick. Who is arguably the single most damaging American politician post Vietnam.

Shoulda taken RFK's call. It would've demonstrated that the tent is wide enough to include not only right wing establishment figures like Cheney, but also those outside it. Not doing so sent the message "nah we won't talk to you if you don't follow us on covid" when of course about 35-45% of the electorate, uh, doesn't like those same pieties.
Yeah the Cheney stuff was incredibly tone stuff.

Trump embodies the American spirit of forgiveness and redemption. He doesn't care if you called him Hitler last year as long as you're on board now you can be VP.
 
Inconsistent, she campaigned with Liz Cheney for about a month, explicitly welcoming Dick. Who is arguably the single most damaging American politician post Vietnam.

Shoulda taken RFK's call. It would've demonstrated that the tent is wide enough to include not only right wing establishment figures like Cheney, but also those outside it. Not doing so sent the message "nah we won't talk to you if you don't follow us on covid" when of course about 35-45% of the electorate, uh, doesn't like those same pieties.

I mean I think the Liz stuff is debatable - certainly Harris spent too much energy on it - but she is still very popular with the suburban and college educated former Republicans who are now Dems class. RFK has no constituency really.

Dems achieving goals... how's that going?

They have basically been the most broadly successful leftwing party in a western country in the 21st century in terms of electoral victories (it’s been a not great century for left wing parties).
 
Dems are not a left-wing party. There are a few left-wing people there, but never at the top. As Biden concisely put it: "I beat the socialist".
Also, in some other western countries you have seen left-wing governments. The turn to the far right in the Eu has local reasons, unrelated to the citizenry in the US.
 
Dems are not a left-wing party. There are a few left-wing people there, but never at the top. As Biden concisely put it: "I beat the socialist".
Also, in some other western countries you have seen left-wing governments. The turn to the far right in the Eu has local reasons, unrelated to the citizenry in the US.

That’s a different subject, but I think the days of the Dems being much less left wing than European mainstream left parties are coming to an end. Plenty of left wing European parties have struggled badly with immigration, trans rights, marijuana, all kinds of stuff in the last decade. Reform of social democratic policy is rampant. Health care is still probably the elephant in the room that separates them the most.
 
They have basically been the most broadly successful leftwing party in a western country in the 21st century in terms of electoral victories (it’s been a not great century for left wing parties).
Getting beaten by Trump twice (and barely winning after a pandemic & recession) isn't particularly inspiring.
 
Getting beaten by Trump twice (and barely winning after a pandemic & recession) isn't particularly inspiring.

It’s not! But we’re also the only country among our peers whose system allowed Trump to win in 2016 when he lost the popular vote by 2.5%. Our antiquated and slave owner friendly election system is doing a number on the Dems. There is a reason we did not suggest our same system of government to any rebuilding countries after WWII.
 
RFK sounds like a consimate s***bag. I hadn't heard about pro-Putin bit before. From what I've read he had diaries which spelled out escapades with dozens of women while his wife lay dying. Bill Clinton was also friends w Epstein and did who knows what. The point is that no one in our internet age is squeaky clean & voters are numbed out with all the allegations of this & that to the point where they just block it all out (otherwise how would we have Trump).

Not saying Harris should've necessarily embraced RFK but it's just a default to shun anyone these days w a sketchy past & therefore joining up w the right is the only viable option for them (bringing their supporters w them).

We're in an era of desperation & that leads to the desire for naked power.

Here is some of the upside of RFK.

1.5 months before the election he went hard against yellow dye #5 (Is nothing in my Mountain Dew safe?!)


We laughed, but then Biden banned Red Dye #3 for causing cancer a week ago. :eek:


Amusingly, USA banned Red #2 for causing cancer in the 70s, but Canada and Europe keep using it. :dunno:
 
even a broken clock is right twice a day.

and the opposite, for the record. i know someone who's very aware of the ills as to food production and consumption (even in the eu's regulatory market) and they have personally constructed a method of consumption that's both affordable, mostly ethical, and quite healthy. like, actual proper organic stuff, chasing homegrown things, zero container waste products, stuff like that. it takes a lot of work and smarts to do that in the current market, let alone affordably, so they're consistently impressive; but they also believe in 5G radio tower cancer nonsense.

i'm glad RFK is trying to do something about the toxins and food quality in the US, but it's bluntly not as important as vaccination.
 
Who cares if some leftists are personally dislikeable, or have weird opinions? That isn't the concern here.
Bernie Sanders was recently denounced as a racist by some left-aligned people for his statement on H1b visas. He had his defenders, like usual, but as with previous allegations of his racism and sexism, nothing stopped his detractors.

Core of it is there: Dems don't go left because of the culture of the progressive movement. They don't really wanna alienate large swathes of the public to court a group that's itching to condemn in that way. Particularly when they're gonna have to grapple with immigration, in some form or fashion, and they see... that.
 
even a broken clock is right twice a day.

and the opposite, for the record. i know someone who's very aware of the ills as to food production and consumption (even in the eu's regulatory market) and they have personally constructed a method of consumption that's both affordable, mostly ethical, and quite healthy. like, actual proper organic stuff, chasing homegrown things, zero container waste products, stuff like that. it takes a lot of work and smarts to do that in the current market, let alone affordably, so they're consistently impressive; but they also believe in 5G radio tower cancer nonsense.
That's pretty standard, health food space full of people like that
i'm glad RFK is trying to do something about the toxins and food quality in the US, but it's bluntly not as important as vaccination.
Lifestyle related illness like 50+ percent of deaths in US, infectious disease not even in top 10 iirc, I agree keep basic vaccines to keep it that way (infectious disease down) but it's not much of a comparison, RFK has repeated said he doesn't plan to ban or block any vaccines and Trump is amoral his stance on vaccines will be whatever thinks will boost his image
 
Bernie Sanders was recently denounced as a racist by some left-aligned people for his statement on H1b visas. He had his defenders, like usual, but as with previous allegations of his racism and sexism, nothing stopped his detractors.

Core of it is there: Dems don't go left because of the culture of the progressive movement. They don't really wanna alienate large swathes of the public to court a group that's itching to condemn in that way. Particularly when they're gonna have to grapple with immigration, in some form or fashion, and they see... that.
Narz's argument is, partly, "so what if they did bad things". To engage with a different argument would require its own tangent.

Alienation isn't a problem in Narz's suggested scenario. The broadening of appeal is meant to be key. Moreso than any potential negative consequences.
 
Bernie Sanders was recently denounced as a racist by some left-aligned people for his statement on H1b visas. He had his defenders, like usual, but as with previous allegations of his racism and sexism, nothing stopped his detractors.
Wouldn't be surprised if some of that was fake, but then again some of the takes I see on this forum are so absurd it's hard not to believe those espousing them are plants to goofify & spread confusion (iirc that's pretty common in Russia)
 
Narz's argument is, partly, "so what if they did bad things". To engage with a different argument would require its own tangent.

Alienation isn't a problem in Narz's suggested scenario. The broadening of appeal is meant to be key. Moreso than any potential negative consequences.
Yes, the culture... doesn't broaden the appeal, it reduces it.

If you're Biden, the foremost Dem leader, and you are informed that the progressive grassroots is trying to get "genocide Joe" to stick to you, do you think he thought "yeah, I'm sure they won't try to devour us"

Or the Seth Moulton saga.

Or attacking AOC for "selling out".

It's a pretty long list.
 
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