RR12 - A perfect spy

[lymond]

ok...here's a general overview:

1) Continue spy focus on Malinese cities - Djienne and Kumba Saleh. Hopefully, we will get them to revolt soon.

2) Build a lot more spies and put more pressure on Aztec border cities. We have several cities now that can produce spies.

3) Farm over cottages in AA. This city needs more food. Gondar will get some farms so these cities can be good production cities.

4) Aksum should really get in Oxford before a bank

5) Once AA gets Taj done, we will get a golden age. Good time to switch to Rep and Free Market, since Econ will be done. Should we switch to Nationalism for the EP bonus? It will nerf the Burea effects of Aksum, but may boost EPs overall. However, until we start running the EP slider that may be questionable. YET, we can run a lot more spy specialists in cities now.

6) Democracy and a Communism bee-line seems to be the next good tech path for the spy builds and free spy.

7) Basically, just keep pummeling the AIs with cutlure spread missions.

8) Would be nice to work in a trade for engineering at some point - maybe with Wang. And get gunpowder so we can produce some Oromos for later.

 

[lymond]

actually, I may go ahead and play tonight as I'm going to be up in my SGOTM tomorrow which will be time consuming.

 

[Thrar]

Is it important to put pressure on Monty soon? The west is only about 2 cities deep, there's much more in the east. I'd rather get started on Seoul or Tarsus than work on Monty.

 

[lymond]

turnset played:


summary:

1) Got out a ton more spies...lost maybe 2 or 3 on mission fails

2) Immediately detoured to Engineering. That extra movement is really good to have for spies. I check trade ops with Wang but he was teching Guilds. I got Engineering in 2 turns anyway. Then finished Econ for the GM and went PP>Demo

3) Ran spy mission mainly on Djienne, Kumbeh Saleh and Monty's southern city. We are making some progress in each. Djienne is a tough cookie and mission are getting expensive even with spies sitting several turns. I weighted more spy points to Mansa since the mission are getting so expensive in Djienne.

4) War kept going on and off. Everyone is declaring on someone except Wang, who's just been chillin' the whole time. Mansa took a city from Monty and then vassaled him. Actually, that may not be such a bad thing since we don't have to worry about attacks from Monty. However, Mansa does not like us so much. That will change once we go to Free Market. Interestingly, that city mansa took soon revolted in our favor, even though we have only 20% culture. Yet, Djienne wont revolt at over 70% culture.

5) Built lots of jails and culture buildings on borders, while spreading some Christianity around. 2 Christian mishes failed. Ox built in Aksum along with christain buildings and Grocer for health, then bank.

6) 2 turns on Taj in AA. Got up a jail and christian monastery and temple there too.

7) oh.... I did get Gunpowder too, so Gondor is spamming Oromos now.

8) Maoi city has started Maoi with a CH, Forge and Jail whipped into it. We have stone now to from Lincoln. I wanted to get it for Kremlin later as well.

9) Free GM is sitting in Aksum. Forgot if there was something special we wanted for it. Sushi would be good here.

Overall, just plugged away on the culture missions. Cities should grow now and start to run as many spies as possible. We should also up the EP slider for 1 turn now and then. We really need a lot for Mansa. This is slow going.

It felt odd not running a golden age. We do have Taj soon, but could really use some civic changes. Free Market definitely. Maybe Rep and Nationalism, simply for EP bonus. Emancipation may be good at the tail end of the Golden Age, when Demo completes, for cottage growth.

 

[Thrar]

Got it, but didn't check yet. Will do so tomorrow, then post my turnset plan.

 

[LKendter]

Nationalism IMO is a *must*. We need max EP.
YEA - Moai in 17 turns.
Fasil still no garrison.

We should start talking about with city we accept flips, and which to replace. For example - Teot is crap to flip Teno . 1 north would be closer to Teno, and at least makes Texo possible.

I agree on the merchant creating Sushi.

 

[Thrar]

Turnset plan:
Taj will finish in 2 turns, nobody else has Nat yet so it's safe. Democracy is currently in 9, should go down during the GA. So I will revolt to representation, free speech and mercantilism at the start of the GA.

Open questions: Do we want to give up slavery and go for emancipation before the GA ends? I thought the consensus was mercantilism, but now LK brought up FM. Do we want that?

Tlaxcala should be razed, then we can build a new city 3N of AA. Teotihuacan isn't bad, but it's too far from Texcoco, so must be razed I guess. Djenne and KS are keepers, so is Seoul. I'm not sure about Tarsus, it's nice but needs 500 culture to reach Pasargadae. Then again, I can't see any better locations to resettle, so I guess we should keep it.

I will keep building spies and spreading culture. We currently have a lot of EP in stock with Monty, so I will change the allocation to MM only.

Techs I'm thinking Demo->Corp->Sci Meth. We don't have a lot of seafood nor will we likely ever have, so what do we do with the GM? Trade mission to Bulawayo in the far east?

 

[Thrar]

Double post, ignore.

 

[nocho]

Emancipation sounds good to me. We're not in a great whipping need anymore. For now I think merc is definitely a better option than FM, it'll take a good while anyway before we get to medicine if we really want Sushi (which with our current sea food resources is not that wonderful as usual). I won't cry over it if you use the GM for a trade mission. Timbuktu with ToA might be the best option actually...

Am wondering slightly between nationhood and free speech. The +25% EP everywhere isn't bad either, but 100% culture plus 2 gold per town sounds very good too, also in combination with emancipation. I'll give the nod to FS for now.

A city 3N of AA sounds good, but while you're at it, when you raze Tlaxcala, another city 1NW of there might make sense too.

Tech path sounds good to me. I guess we want to get communism farily soon now.

 

[LKendter]

Regarding the GM - don't forget as we start flipping coastal cities we will get more fish. As the game gets later fast culture will become more critical. With Sushi we can set it up so that the second we settle an executive is there. Instant culture, even if not a ton, is *very* powerful.

We should start putting signs on the map for cities to keep vs. raze. If raze, what is the new spot.

I agree that whipping is done at the end of this GA. Sneak a few in before the end of a GA, and get emancipation at the GA end.

I will vote for Merc - I think when I posted that I forget we have Sistine. That gives us at least 2 CPT from the free specialist the second we settle new cities.
Make sure we start SoL the second democracy is finished! Another free specialist is huge for us - culture at our borders, and spy specialist for our interior cities.

 

[LKendter]

More on Sushi - don't forget that rice counts, not just seafood.

Addis, Yeha have rice. Seoul's rice is 22% ours.

I suspect Djenne when it finally flips will be our corp headquarters since it already has a shrine - perfect for Wall Street.

 

[lymond]

Why Merc? Sure, run it during the Golden Age, but we definitely want Free Market for Sushi and the extra commerce.

I would go Demo>Sci Meth>Communism>Corp>Medicine

 

[r_rolo1]

Not sure between FS and natio ... as nocho states, the balance between 25% EP everywhere ( including in our more productive cities in terms of EP ) and 100% culture , that would only only be useful in our border cities ( that will have little culture production most of the times ) is pretty equal , if not lopsided to natio side. Merc + Sushi + Sistine is powerful indeed ... better if we add SoL.

There is one aspect that needs discussion: should we close borders with Mansa ? If we go merc there is no downside to do that and we would prevent Mansa of piling more units in the Christian holy city ( and in the other cities we manage to isolate ). BTW we could settle a city between Djenne and the city Mansa captured ( maybe 3W of Djenne , if the tile holds in our hands long enough ... it would be a way of putting more pressure and of using those tiles already in our hands. We can make a settler and put it there in maybe 7 turns ...

Techwise ... definitely Demo . And after that ... We can go PP->RP->Rifling + Steam or Chemistry ( + Astro? )-> SciMet->Communism + Bio . Not sure of what one is better at this moment.

What to do with the GP that will come in 2 turns ? If a GS, save it for a GA, maybe ? If a GA ... dunno , we already have 2 of them If a GSpy, SY ?

We can't see ATM the revolt % of Djenne ( due to lack of enough stored EP ). Lymond, can you say how high it was last time it was visible ? I expect something around 10%-20%...

A roster

r_rolo1
Thy_Spellcraft
Brian Shanahan -somewhere out there
lymond - just played
Thrar - UP
LKendter -on deck
nocho

P.S. @ Tatran

Yup, CivWorld is wacky for us, control freaks that play PC Civ I played 2 games out of the beta, got to be king of a civ once, but if you aren't a minister or a King, you have very little control on what happens , especially if you are in a big civ ...

x-post with lymond:

I'm pretty sure that given our variant, merc beats FM atleast until we have a lot of hired specs. A extra spy in a border city with all the spy buildings on and with sistine is extremely powerful for our variant.

 

[lymond]

Rolo - We have PP (pre-req of Demo)...after that I say we bee-line Communism for the Intelligence Agencies and the Med for Sushi. All the military techs we can trade for later - we have a strong tech lead and plenty of techs to backfill military techs with - lets focus tech path on the goals. Oromos are pretty darn solid for some time.

Free Speech vs. Nationalism. The culture/commerce bonus from Free Speech is nice, but since this variant appears to be more about EP culture, then Nationalism seems more appropriate. It will boost all the spies we can now run with these spy buildings. BIO will boost the effect as well. We also don't really have that many developed cottages yet anyway.

Sorry, I forget that revolt % on Djienne. We can boost our EPs on Mansa very quickly now. I run a lot of missions last turn or so on him.

Emancipation should probably wait until we whip in all the EP buildings. Are there any more after Intelligence Agencies?

I'm not sold on Merc. It will make corps more expensive and the number of specialists we run can be made up for with BIO. We will have a leg up on SoL and I think that is plenty. We still want trade routes.

 

[r_rolo1]

Oh, I missed PP I would prefer going Communism ASAP too, but I'm worried that we may need to war with mansa soon to clean his units out of Djenne to force the revolt ( 4 units is already a good cut in the % of revolt ), but Oromos + Cannons ( if we detour to steel ) should do the trick.

 

[lymond]

Oromos and trebs are more than enough for Mansa. Once we get the culture % up to like 80, his city will go into revolt constantly and after 3 the city will auto-cede to us.

 

[Thrar]

T0 - slot in a grocer (6t) in Gondar, it will soon become unhealthy and the 3 gpt won't hurt either. Swap Lali to walls and inserted them into a few more build queues to get castles.

T1 - Shaka demanded Guilds, no way. Lali built walls and I realize that castles are in fact obsolete. Ahem. Removed walls from the aforementioned build queues.

T2 - GA starts. Lose a spy in Teotihuacan. GSpy is born and moves to Aksum for settling. Unless we start using the slider regularly it's still the best option by far.
Revolt to Rep, Nat, Merc. Hire spies everywhere except an engineer or two in hammer-poor cities.

T3 - GSpy settled in Aksum (33 per turn after modifiers plus a ton of research vs 18 for the best SY in Yeha).


I finish the set here, it's become too slow on my computer (a ~1 year old netbook). Most of the turn is sending spies to sleep and instructing workers, which takes way too long already. Analyzing the next moves, going through tile allocations etc. takes even longer, so I better hand it off here so I won't become sloppy.
I will lurk this game from now on and just take part in the discussion. LK, you're up!

 

[LKendter]

Got it

 

[lymond]

Sorry to hear about the PC, Thrar...i hope you can find your way to a new one

hmmm...So Djienne appears to actually be losing culture back to the Mali and the city is getting really expensive to run missions.

Two thoughts:

1) We may have to go with Rolo's approach of attacking the city and reducing the fortified units. Mansa has put a lot more units in the city. The AI seems programmed to defend against revolt.

.....however, this means war with the Aztecs. I don't think that is bad, however, as that simply means we can probably flip his cities sooner.

...overall, I think we need to focus cities on buildings Oromos and Trebs. Focus a stack on Djienne and Monty's Southern city, while fortifying Yeha and AA with Oromos for defense or maybe on a hill outside to pick-off tresspassers.

2) Another idea I posit is that as we continue to hit Djienne with spy missions, we also start running some missions in Tim. My thinking here is that possible increasing our cultural presence in cities behind Djienne will ease the culture factor on Djienne itself. This might be a good approach for other cities as well.

3) Nationalism appears to have raised our static EP production significantly.

4) I say we keep the focus on Communism and trade VERY sparingly with the AIs

5) Gondor and AA should be 100% production focused. Gondor should watermill over those cottages, which it appears Thrar has wisely started already. Gondor can get HE eventually. AA is another possibility.

Overall, it looks like we need to start attacking these cities to get somewhere with this game. With the AI apparently programmed to stop revolts from happening, this could take forever.

Let's not forget since we are in Nat, we can draft Oromos too. So slow build/whip trebs and draft Oromos.

A Globe city would be nice. Not sure where to put it though.

edit: We are in a Golden Age....Yeha should be running more specialists to the point of starving if needed.

 

[LKendter]

1450 AD
(IT)
I do a pre-start review.
I wake a unit up, and Fasil will finally have a garrison.
I don't see much changes needed with our cities.


1460 AD
(IT) Sorry Lincoln, I'm not going to war with the Zulu.
Stupid AP ends the war between Mansa and Shaka despite me voting no. We need more Christian votes.


1480 AD
(IT) The next tech is chemistry to push toward communism. Replaceable parts were very tempting for the extra shields from windmills.
I refuse to give Mansa liberalism.


1490 AD
Gondar is our fastest city to build the Statue of Liberty, so I start it there. We need those extra specialists.
(IT) Sorry Darius, you aren't getting printing press.


1505 AD
We have three artist sitting around doing nothing. I spend one of them to extend our GA.
We need to get the Statue ASAP for the extra specialist. We have a ton of cities working on spy buildings. If we are going to win this we need more EP ASAP.


1515 AD
I cancel a bunch of deals with the AI. At this point giving them health or happiness for a few dollars a turn is a waste. We need to keep the AIs weak.


1520 AD
This city can help put pressure on 2 AI cities.


All but our brand new city has Christianity. At this point we are done with spreading the AP religion.


1525 AD
(IT) I would rather have Darius pick the AP resolutions. I wasn't happy with the war versus Mansa ending.


1530 AD
We can't spread much into Tlaxcala, but I do like the dirt cheap cost.


1535 AD
We own a great spy!
I have left him with movement.
We need to decide between settle and Scotland Yard.
Courthouse + Jail + Security Bureau = 14 EP. We are just 10 turns from communism that ups that to 22 EP. The settled spy is with 24 EP after SY. The choice isn't so clear now. Settling does give us another 6 beakers. I still learn toward settle, but want to confirm.

I think we are locked to grab communism first, and that free spy. That will give us our last critical building.

We can then start working toward heavy war mode. I've gotten a small stack by Djenne, but we need more to wage war. Take one look at Mansa's stack in Kumbi to see why I make that comment. At this point I think our odds of winning without some wars are 0%.