Rule Proposal - Save Manipulation

[DaveShack]

The rule on save manipulation is factually incorrect. It lists programs which have nothing to do with manipulating the save, nor with viewing things which would not be available within the game.

2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM save games or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat or CivAssist II or such utilities is also prohibited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

I propose this as an alternative

2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM save games or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat or CivAssist II or such utilities is also prohibited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

 

[DaveShack]

Admins, we don't need a discussion, this can go straight to team voting. Either this passes or you can just banish me, because I will use CivAssist II or any other program that shows only information which is available in-game to the appropriate team. CA2 pops up a password panel and won't let you see the other team's data without knowing their password -- try it yourself if you don't believe it.

If I wanted to cheat (which I would never do BTW) it would be trivial to write my own utility program which reveals everything. Many others here could do the same.

What I can't do is devote a lot of time to retouching photos which can be generated by a publicly available program and just cropped. My wife and kids barely put up with me playing this game at all, so the amount of time it takes is very important.

 

[Tubby Rower]

We were wondering about that one too, but since it was just one turn that we had to play, we figured that it wasn't that big of a deal to check for happiness & other such MM activities.

We'd have to discuss it and I'll post a thread in our forum to get attention and allow Whomp to offically reply.

 

[DaveShack]

We were wondering about that one too, but since it was just one turn that we had to play, we figured that it wasn't that big of a deal to check for happiness & other such MM activities.

We'd have to discuss it and I'll post a thread in our forum to get attention and allow Whomp to offically reply.

Actually it's mostly the screenies. Here is an urban planning example. Obviously this is not from MTDG as none of us are playing Portugal.

 

[RegentMan]

DaveShack has put forth an amendment to the ruleset.

Here is the current rule:

2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM save games or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat or CivAssist II or such utilities is also prohibited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

Here is the proposed amendment. Changes are in bold and italics:

2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM save games or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat or CivAssist II or such utilities is also prohibited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

UN reps: please present this issue to your teams. You will have 72 hours to discuss and vote this amendment. The options are:

Option 1 - Yes, my team approves of this amendment.

Option 2 - No, my team does not approve of this amendment.

Abstain

 

[classical_hero]

Will Mapstat give us any info about the other teams? If that is the case, then it should be banned.

 

[DaveShack]

Will Mapstat give us any info about the other teams? If that is the case, then it should be banned.

I agree that using any program to gain information which is not available inside the game should be forbidden. The part of the rule which would not be modified by this proposal already covers such programs. The problem is with listing specific programs which do not have the characteristics that the rule is aimed against. If a new version of a given utility comes out which is MP-safe, then we shouldn't have to go through another of these rule changes in order to allow its use.

 

[classical_hero]

Thnks for clearing that up.

 

[classical_hero]

Perhaps what we need is a list of utilities that are banned and with their most recent version, so that we can know which utilities we cannot use. Obviously once a more recent version comes out that complies with the rules, then we should get the Game Admins to have a check and then they can say that which Utility can be used. This list should be stickied so that each team has easy access to the list of banned programs.

 

[ybbor]

Perhaps what we need is a list of utilities that are banned and with their most recent version, so that we can know which utilities we cannot use. Obviously once a more recent version comes out that complies with the rules, then we should get the Game Admins to have a check and then they can say that which Utility can be used. This list should be stickied so that each team has easy access to the list of banned programs.

there are only 4 programs allowed by GOTM. Mapstat and civassist (not sure about CA II?) are smong them. you can find the list here

that being said, I don't like the idea. I think we should do this game with as much pure use of our collective brains as possible; use of programs which lower the importance of thinking simply cheapen the game.

 

[Provolution]

I am a purist myself, and only use information I observe playing the save and posting screenies. I think the teams should strive to follow this austere and honorable path.
The UN moderators can testify that we are not using any funky Civ applications to get a leg up on the opposition in Team TNT. We are as pure as it gets.

 

[DaveShack]

there are only 4 programs allowed by GOTM. Mapstat and civassist (not sure about CA II?) are smong them. you can find the list here

CivAssist II was written by Ainwood, the moderator of GOTM. Yes, it's definitely allowed.

 

[DaveShack]

I am a purist myself, and only use information I observe playing the save and posting screenies. I think the teams should strive to follow this austere and honorable path.
The UN moderators can testify that we are not using any funky Civ applications to get a leg up on the opposition in Team TNT. We are as pure as it gets.

In practical terms, the only thing I use CA2 for in a demogame type setting is screenies like the one above. The tradeoff is between being able to get that visual effect with a couple of mouse clicks vs having to go into a photo retouch program, make a layer, make it transparent, draw a shape the right size for a city radius, place that layer on the screenie, adjust stuff until it looks decent, etc. Two minutes vs 5-10, 20 or more if you really want it to look nice. My minutes are extremely valuable and I prefer to be efficient.

 

[Whomp]

We have not voted yet at K.I.S.S. I think the key issue is whether these programs can manipulate a PBEM. IE Would mapstat give the techs, gold, resources etc. that each civ has in a PBEM like it does in SP?

I have pm'd Ainwood and Dianthus to see if they could post in this thread on the issue.

Personally, I see these tools as DaveShack does. I don't think the programs cheapen the game whatsoever. The interfaces are easier to use when managing your empire.

 

[Kiech]

As far as using 'pure brainpower' vs some sort of program is concerned, I don't think that is quite relevant to this game. Nearly everyone in this forum has used or currently uses the knowledge from all the spreadsheets, formulas, and computations that are readily availble on this very website. Some of you will no doubt use a spreadsheet to help deal with corruption or the amount of time needed for production. CivAssist and other spoiler-free applications are simply a compilation of this knowledge.

The point of the game is to determine who can best use their creativity and vision to achieve a win. Compilation programs that do not provide spoilers allow all of us to bring the math of the game down to a very basic level, so we can concentrate on the GAME itself and not the mechanics of the game.

Thats my 2 cents anyways.

 

[DaveShack]

Also please realize that if I'm wrong and CA2 does have spoiler capabilities (not likely but you seem to want Ainwood's personal reply) then the admins can still deal with an actual cheater the same way they would if the info was obtained any other way. Taking specific utility names out of the rules does not mean it is ok to cheat using them -- it only means it is ok to use them in ways which are not cheating.

These are the important clauses in the rule, the rest is eye candy.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

 

[ainwood]

I have pm'd Ainwood and Dianthus to see if they could post in this thread on the issue.

Got it!

CivAssist II is designed to be spoiler-safe. The only things that I know of that are not spoiler safe in the latest version are:

1. It will show you which tiles have been deforested (Included by design).
2. You can apparently work-out which forest and jungle tiles are on bonus grassland vs normal grassland (bug / oversight)

I have not played PBEM or multiplayer myself for years, so have never rigorously tested it, but AFAIK CA-II is 'spoiler safe' for MP games. People who have played MP games can probably give more info than I can.

BTW - We're more than happy to fix anything that is identified, so please tell us if you find something.

 

[Tubby Rower]

I created a "test" PBEM game and loaded it into MApstat. It turns out that the little drop-down box in the upper-left corner of it will have all of the teams listed. If you click on a team it will prompt you for a password. If you don't enter in the team's password (or the admin's password) then it will return a blank screen. I can upload the save here with all of the passwords so people can play with it. Or you could just go make one yourself. I've never done it before but twasn't hard.

 

[Dianthus]

By default CRpMapStat does not show spoiler info, but some spoiler info can be enabled in the preferences. This is on a seperate tab titled "Spoiler" with a bright red background, so it's unlikely anyone would enable this accidentally. AFAIK CRpMapStat is multi-player friendly, requiring the password to be entered to view information about a particular player, though like ainwood I haven't got involved with MP games myself so haven't tested this extensively, instead relying on feedback from MP users. Spoiler type bugs are the ones I tend to fix quickly and there are no spoiler type bugs outstanding, unless they haven't been reported.

 

[Whomp]

Thank you Ainwood and Dianthus for helping us.