Ruleset Discussion

Ginger_Ale

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Oh, no, that dreaded time of writing a ruleset... ;) Well, we've got to have one, and we've got to start somewhere. As Civ4 is a relatively new game, there aren't many exploits (at least found), so it might be a bit easier writing one. We've got a copule options:

1 - Write one from scratch.
2 - A combination of copy + paste from the Civ3 Ruleset, and a bit of our own writing.
3 - Something else? Maybe mostly using the Civ3 ruleset.

Right now I'm leaning towards starting one from scratch - Civ4 is a very different game from Civ3. So, right now, share your input on what is essential to be in this ruleset, and we'll go from there. Also, share any exploits you want banned. You can just make a list of what needs to be written about in this ruleset.

PS: Does anyone know if you can use mods like the Logging mod in Multiplayer? If so, we'll have to write a clause about those too...
 
But the fact is probably 80+% of it is useless because it relates to Civ3 workings and exploits and not Civ4. Plus, as we've seen, there's been some conflict with 'spirit of the game' and such. Writing one from scratch is really the only option that will suit our needs.
 
It can be pretty lightweight I think. Writing from scratch would be a good idea because the whole "level orange penalty 1 turn" blah blah from the Civ3 ruleset is too ugly to let it live.

Primarilly the rules need to be about out of game treaties, spying, getting info using utilities, etc. If there are any MP exploits in Civ4 we should identify them and include rules against them.
 
I have used "autolog" in a pbem. If you use an autolog you have to have the "no cheat" option off so I'd think this is a utility that can not be used. "No cheat" can give a view of the whole map.
 
I believe that "No Cheating" should absolutely be checked. Otherwise it's all to easy to cheat.
 
I brought up "unit training" in the Civ IV ISDG rule discussion. Having allies suicide warriors (or any unit) on each other for unit promotions should be forbidden.
 
The whole gifting a city to your ally which your about to lose during a war and then getting it back many turns later and not being allowed to do that should be included.
 
What I'd like
  • No cheat (autolog isn't necessary and it prevents custom python scripts that screw with stuff)
  • no gifting cities to allies if it's about to be taken
  • no suiciding for experience
  • no screenshots until after appropriate tech
  • no "spirit of the game" crap (write it down if it's important)
Something that I haven't been able to test too much is the drawing and pinging the map that you can do in MP games. Does anyone have experience with this?
 
Tubby Rower said:
What I'd like
  • No cheat (autolog isn't necessary and it prevents custom python scripts that screw with stuff)
  • no gifting cities to allies if it's about to be taken
  • no suiciding for experience
  • no screenshots until after appropriate tech
  • no "spirit of the game" crap (write it down if it's important)
Something that I haven't been able to test too much is the drawing and pinging the map that you can do in MP games. Does anyone have experience with this?
Why not have a spirit of the game clause? otherwise people can worm there way through rules, this way the game admins can stop it
 
Since it is a new game ... exploits will no doubt be discovered as we play ...
Therefore I believe that a 'spirit of the game' clause should be included ... that way the admins can make a ruling midgame and modify the ruleset as we go ... The game could even be halted for team discussions if necessary (as has occurred in C3C MTDG) and them added to the game's rule set.
 
Add to the prohibited actions, gifting units from a non-military to a military civ and then gifting back. Doing so gives +2 experience for free, though that bug may be fixed at some point.
 
1.0. Out of Game Actions
1.1. Reloading
Reload the game save to gain an advantage is not permitted. These advantages can include, but are not limited to, getting better combat results, exploring more of the map, or any other in-game outcome.

1.2. Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game a city, minimap, or anything else are not to be traded to another team either as part of a deal or a gift until the required tech for map trading, Paper, has been discovered by one of the teams involved. Verbal descriptions using generalities and landmarks are allowed.

1.3. Save Manipulation
Editing the save file with or without a utility to gain an advantage and/or change game data is not allowed.

2.0. In Game Actions
2.1. Renaming Cities
Because cities are tradable, refrain from naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology". Naming cities is allowed as long as it is not for trickery.

2.2. Gifting Units
Giftings units from a non-Militaristic civilization to a Militaristic civilization and back for the sole purpose of gaining 2 experience points for free is not allowed, nor is gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed.

2.3. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.

2.4. Suicidal Units
Attacking your ally's units or vice versa with the pure intent of gaining experience points, not for war, is not allowed. By suiciding warriors or any unit on each other, you can quickly gain many experience points.

2.5. New Exploits
This list does not cover all exploits; if you find an undiscovered one, it is your duty to inform the administrators. An amendment banning this exploit will require a simple majority vote.

3.0. Game Procedure
3.1. Time Allowed
Each team is allowed 24 hours to play the save and send it to the next team. If they are unable to do so, they may ask the administrators for an extension. No team has to use all 24 hours; please play promptly.

3.2. Sending the Save
When you are done playing the game, save it. Log into your team's email account, and attach the save and send it to the next team via email (see this thread for team email addresses). Also send it to the administrators.

After sending, post in the "Turn Tracker" thread that the save is on to the next team.

3.3. Battle Log
For convenience, please attach a battle log of your team's units against another team to an email and send it to them. An example line could read: "2.0 Warrior vs. 3.0 Archer - loses, Archer now 1.2".

3.4. Receiving the Save
When your team receives the save in its email, you are allowed one person to play the save. The others are allowed to open it and make any non-reverseable changes (build queues, tile allocation, etc.). The designated players will play the save and the cycle starts again.

3.5. Defeated Teams
If a team that a player was on gets defeated, he is permitted to join another team. However, he may give out no spoiler info (info that his new team does not have, yet his old team did), and if he thinks his suggested actions are tainted by his unfair knowledge, he must refrain from sharing his ideas.

3.6. Team Espionage
Trying to enter a team forum, joining multiple teams under different accounts, or processing through screenshot and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

4.0. Amendment Listing
There are no current amendments.

////////////////////////////////////////

Comments? It's just something rough at the moment. Let me know if I missed anything.

I tried to write something for spirit of the game, but I couldn't come up with anything that works well. If you guys have something, tell me.
 
Ginger_Ale said:
1.0. Out of Game Actions
1.1. Reloading
Reload the game save to gain an advantage is not permitted. These advantages can include, but are not limited to, getting better combat results, exploring more of the map, or any other in-game outcome.

1.2. Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game a city, minimap, or anything else are not to be traded to another team either as part of a deal or a gift until the required tech for map trading, Paper, has been discovered by one of the teams involved. Verbal descriptions using generalities and landmarks are allowed.

1.3. Save Manipulation
Editing the save file with or without a utility to gain an advantage and/or change game data is not allowed.

2.0. In Game Actions
2.1. Renaming Units
When renaming units, be sure you are not confusing the other teams (nor having the intent to confuse them). If you give them independent names, put an abbreviation of the unit type somewhere before or after the name so everyone knows the unit type.

2.2. Renaming Cities
Because cities are tradable, refrain from naming a city something that can be confused with something else, such as "8 Gold" or "Theology". Naming cities is allowed as long as it is not for trickery.

2.3. Gifting Units
Giftings units from a non-Militaristic civilization to a Militaristic civilization and back for the sole purpose of gaining 2 experience points for free is not allowed.

2.4. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.

2.5. Suicidal Units
Attacking your ally's units or vice versa with the pure intent of gaining experience points, not for war, is not allowed. By suiciding warriors or any unit on each other, you can quickly gain many experience points.

2.6. New Exploits
This list does not cover all exploits; if you find an undiscovered one, it is your duty to inform the administrators. An amendment banning this exploit will require a simple majority vote.

3.0. Reputation
3.1. Official Treaties
Teams signing a treaty with another may submit it to the administrators. When both teams agree to the treaty and its wording, it will become official. Each team now must follow the points in the treaty until its cancellation.

3.2. Battle Log
For convenience, please attach a battle log of your team's units against another team to an email and send it to them. An example line could read: "2.0 Warrior vs. 3.0 Archer - loses, Archer now 1.2".

4.0. Game Procedure
4.1. Time Allowed
Each team is allowed 24 hours to play the save and send it to the next team. If they are unable to do so, they may ask the administrators for an extension. No team has to use all 24 hours; please play promptly.

4.2. Sending the Save
When you are done playing the game, save it. Log into your team's email account, and attach the save and send it to the next team via email (see ***THIS THREAD*** for team email addresses). Also send it to the administrators:

Ginger_Ale: ale.of.ginger AT gmail DOT com
RegentMan: TitanicWhiz18 AT comcast DOT com

After sending, post in the "Turn Tracker" thread that the save is on to the next team.

4.3. Receiving the Save
When your team receives the save in its email, you are allowed one person to play the save. The others are allowed to open it and make any non-reverseable changes (build queues, tile allocation, etc.). The designated players will play the save and the cycle starts again.

4.4. Defeated Teams
If a team that a player was on gets defeated, he is permitted to join another team. However, he may give out no spoiler info (info that his new team does not have, yet his old team did), and if he thinks his suggested actions are tainted by his unfair knowledge, he must refrain from sharing his ideas.

4.5. Team Espionage
Trying to enter a team forum, joining multiple teams under different accounts, or processing through screenshot and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

5.0. Amendment Listing
There are no current amendments.

////////////////////////////////////////

Comments? It's just something rough at the moment. Let me know if I missed anything.

I tried to write something for spirit of the game, but I couldn't come up with anything that works well. If you guys have something, tell me.

I think it is very good, execpt for clause 2.4. 2.4. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.


This actually makes sense in real life. If your army is destroying my improvements and slaughtering my units, i might reatreat form the city and try to bribe you to stop killing me. I think this should be taken out!
 
Swissempire said:
I think it is very good, execpt for clause 2.4. 2.4. Gifting Cities
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill, and each case will be reviewed by the administrators.


This actually makes sense in real life. If your army is destroying my improvements and slaughtering my units, i might reatreat form the city and try to bribe you to stop killing me. I think this should be taken out!

Here's the scenario which came up in an actual inter-site game. One team was on the verge of elimination, and had an off-continent ally. The off-continent ally gifted a city to the nearly eliminated team, who then abandoned their capitol and jumped to the other continent. This was a PTW game, and all units in the abandoned city jumped to the new capitol as well, allowing them to continue on in the game.

The same move could be used in Civ4 except that the units probably wouldn't be teleported to the new capitol. I think that's what this rule is about. It's not clear from the rule as written if it's OK to gift a city to a team which is about to be eliminated in order to keep them in the game when their capitol jumps to the newly gifted city.
 
Swissempire, using this 'city jumping' each turn would make it a major annoyance for any team to capture a city of their enemy. As DS illustrated, it's been a pain before.

However, DaveShack, how would you write it to your liking? I think the "to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited" part covers that, though.
 
2.4 City Jumping
During times of War, gifting a city to an ally to stop the enemy from getting, or being gifted a city from an ally to stay alive, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Cities may only be traded, or if gifted as goodwill, the transaction shall be reviewed by the administrators.

It is basically the same, but i feel it clears up some confusion and extend into certain legal gray area's
 
The penalties for failing to meet a rule should be determined beforehand so it's very clear to all involved. They should range from a warning, skipped turn(s), etc. all the way to expulsion from the team (individual violation) or forfeiture of the game (team wide violation).
 
I'm not sure I agree about pre-stating the penalties. When that is done, the rule-set reads like nothing but a list of the ways to get your turn skipped or get thrown out of the game. And if there are mitigating circumstances, it's much easier for the admins to take that into consideration if they have wide latitude in rulings.

Judging by the conduct of the Game Administrators in the civ3 MTDG, I think it's safe to simply state: Any violation of these rules will be investigated by the game administrators, possibly resulting in a fair and appropriate penalty.
 
grahamiam said:
The penalties for failing to meet a rule should be determined beforehand so it's very clear to all involved. They should range from a warning, skipped turn(s), etc. all the way to expulsion from the team (individual violation) or forfeiture of the game (team wide violation).

I agree with one statement - the penalties have to be reworked. The Civ3 MTDG's "red, yellow, orange" whatever penalties are unclear and bad, simply put. However, here I also agree with peter grimes - the rules really depend on a case by case basis. Sometimes a city trade could have little consequence (ie; someone ignorant of a rule), but should they be punished the same amount as someone that blatantly defies the rule and violates the rule unfairly? I can tell you as an admin of the Civ3 MTDG each ruling we make is under different circumstances.
 
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