Runner up 'prize' for not reasearching a religion first

[AlazkanAssassin]

I find it to be exceedingly fun to be able to try to recover from not getting to found an early religion.
Do I go for a later religion? Adopt a neighbors religion? Go without a state religion?
Determining how am I going to be able to overcome my disadvantages, and following that plan to completion is fun. Always getting any advantage I want, not so much fun.

 

[Mesix]

It seems like a good compromise would be to have two holy shrines that are buildable per religion. The first to found the religion would get the holy city where one of the shrines could be build. The second (lesser?) shrine cuold be buildable by any profit in any city where the religion is practiced. This would give a benefit to the player who gets the tech first, and yet still give something for others to reach towards.

I also like the idea that anyone who founds the tech gets a deciple unit. That way they can spread the religion to one of their cities. <b>It is not unrealsitic for a diciple to appear in a far away land preaching the tennants of his faith. That is, afterall, how all religions spread to distant lands.</b> This would not give an unfair advantage to the second to reach the tech since the first player also gets a deciple (which he can use to spread the religion to his most productive city). If any thing the first player still has a leg up because he gets a free (random) city with religion and a deciple to begin spreading religion.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

But when a disciple appears in a far away land, wouldn't it be one he can get to? The second to discover a tech could be on a completely separate continent and centuries away from the sailing thechs that allow communitcation over the oceans.

The "disciples going to far off lands" idea is already in the game as the existing religion spread mechanics.

 

[puck11b]

I do think it's a bad idea if for no other reason than it is already very difficult to get a religious victory, if anyone who wants can pick up any religion they want it will be nearly impossible. Not to mention that it limits your ability (as a religious founder) to get a head start on the wonder associated with your religion (if any) and the heros associated with that religion.
No sir, I don't like it

 

[Nero's fire]

I like every game to be slightly different too. I also like certain odd combinations like octopi dwarves but if you fail to get a religion it can be as game breaking as the dirge setting camp outside your starting city early on. Atleast with the dirge you can can build plenty of warriors to fend them off. Likewise I think that the player should have as much control over what religions they get. Hard work should be rewarded but luck shouldn't be.

A compromise could be actually pretty simple. What if rather then all civs after the first one getting a disciple only a few based off of number of civs got it. Something like on a standard one second and third getting disciples. That way those that were beat out by a few rounds would still get the religion and it would solve the problem later on when everyone eventually gets all the 'Way' techs. Sure they didn't get gold but hey silver and bronze aren't all that bad. I guess ideally there would be a time limit for the disciples to be aquired by this means but that seems too difficult to program in.

Alternativly if religions had a higher chance to cross over continents it could allevate some of the problems with missing out on a religion. But I doubt either of the camps like this idea.

I have never won the game through religious conquest. By the time I usually am able to it would require immense ammounts of inquisitions and conquests that it would take forever and a lot of micromananging. Also by then one of the victories is already secured. Religous conquest needs some work done, perhaps if there was a purge the faith later on it might be viable.

 

[Mithrus]

Something to consider as far as rationalizing "researching" religion techs: the "gods" reward the faithful for seeking them out, or possibly due to the "ice age" the knowledge was simply lost for a time. In either case, researching the religion equates to uncovering the religion.

IMO, it seems very plausible that the first civ to discover a religion gets the holy city (although picking it would be preferred), while all others get either a free disciple or free random city getting the religion. In both cases, the "gods" reward the faithful civ for re-discovering the religion. Favoritism is simply shown to the first civ.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I don't see why you think that a one turn difference in research rates should allow one Civ to double their happicap, get temples (which in themselves also increase happicap), and access to religious units, while the other two Civs that were going for this get nothing. Leaving things the way that they are handicaps the AI, too. I'm not saying that everyone should get free disciples every time they discover a Way tech. We've already said that if they already have a state religion, they shouldn't get anything. What's the problem with this?

 

[DieselBiscuit]

Do we want it to spread the religion, or do we want it to not spread?? If we do not want it to spread if it is learned via trade...can that distinction be coded?

I'd vote for not spreading by trade and that is easy codework.

Runner's up should not be allowed the advantage of starting their religionin their best temple-bulding city. The random city method is clearly preferable.

The method for spreading should of course be the same for both religious gold medalists and the runners up.

That leads you to combination you might not ordinarilly try, such as Ashen Veil Elohim. Or Octopus Overlord Khazad.

So very agreed upon, Unser, but AIs very seldom go for founding a second choice religion. If they try something unusual it's usually because they've had culturally heavy neighbours which have spread their religions to them. Nobody wants to take away the possibility for that kind of diversity.

I for one certainly want to add this as a temporary solution to actually getting something for your investment, as it becomes a random gamble at higher difficulty levels to get what you try for. I'm imagining a whole new take on religion that puts something more than just teching it here, and it starts with gaining the possibility to get the means to actually worship your chosen deity wether or not you're the first to do so.

I'll be the first to admit to enjoying a tough challenge (though perhaps not as masochistic as Sureshot when it comes to difficulty level) but I find the concept a bit flawed atm. The mechanic proposed will as a stand alone element possibly make things a bit more boring and predictable, but I believe it's meant to be put in a more complex context that should at least be given a chance before being off-handedly dismissed as a dud.

I strongly belive that those who do not research it first should not get the religion given to them in any way. You missed it, I'm sorry. Either you didn't try very hard for it, or someone else did.

Three words: Difficulty level, multiplayer.

Get back to me when you beat Ljosalfar to Leaves or Khazad to Runes on Emperor or above. Remember that you set the standard for arguments here, my friend

If everyone can get the religion without getting it from the founder, then we will lose a lot of variety in the game. If everyone can get one of the first three religions, why would anyone but the human player ever try order or veil?

For exactly the same reasons that YOU research other religions now. You just have to make the rewards come at a later level and make the AI want it's own religon as bad as it wants it's preferred now.

I'm just so disappointed that every argument against this mechanic considers it in a void. There is a thing called context, people

I hate missing out on a religion I'm going for, but I wouldn't want to eliminate the rush for them. Without the potential to lose out on a religion it will simply become a rutene part of your research, not an important goal. Would you ever see ljosalfar without leaves? or dwarves without runes? I think a lot of variety would be lost.

The rush should not be for the religious tech. It should be for making your nation of believers the preferred worshippers of the deity. This is not Christianity or Islam. Kilmorph et al bestows their blessings a bit more more directly than Jesus or Allah seems to.

Edit: And one more comment, if two nations on separate continents started worshiping the same god, what are the odds that they would worship in a similar enough way so as not to brand the others as heretics?
On earth even small religious differences can lead to separation of two groups nominally of the same religion (see catholic/orthodox/prodestent or shiite/suni)
Would dwarves who worship Kilmorph get along with Doviello who do in a different way? I bet they'd try to kill each other over it.

Again it becomes a bit different when the deity in question actually answers your prayers in the form of a mutation or something of the like. Besides, who said that Khazad and Doviello are to be best buddies just because the religion they share come from the neighbour and not a visiting Lanun from abroad? Also, the mechanics for how much value a leader puts in sharing a state religion with another is already in the game. We are debating a non-issue

Pardon my rambling.
And have a nice day.

Only if you pardon mine And a terrific day to both Unser and you

 

[Hypnotoad]

I really think that you should not let multiple people "discover" the same religion.

It would take an interesting choice out of the game: what religion am I going to go for? How important is this religion to me -- how many other techs should I go for first? With this change, I can end up going for all of them at my leisure (oh, and abandon my state religion one turn before discovering the new religion). I am going to get Leaves every time just for the Ancient forests...

Here's a runner's up prize: what if anyone who discovered the appropriate tech found out where on the map the holy city is. That would give the person a mild thank-you-for-playing prize, and if they wanted to convert to that religion, they could always go and try to make contact with the appropriate Civ.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

(oh, and abandon my state religion one turn before discovering the new religion)

Anarchy? Loss of religious heroes? Minimum time between switching religions? This is impractical, and the AI certainly won't do it.

 

[Hypnotoad]

The fact that the AI won't do it is even worse. Getting Ancient Forests is a huge advantage. Unless I desparately need my hero I'll just wait until after I've researched leaves. And it normally takes at least 10 turns to research a tech, so the minimum time between switching religions won't matter.

 

[Mesix]

Is there a way to make it so that a player (not the first) could get a deciple ONLY if they do not have another religion already? If a player has no religion AND acquires an appropriate tech AND clicks the button to adopt the religion as their state religion then they should have the ability to spread that religion to one of their cities. If there is already another religion in their territory then they do not get a free deciple. This would limit each player to only one free deciple (unless of course they are the first to discover another religion).

Another idea might be to increase the rate of spread for a religion in a players territory once they have acquired the necessary tech. Perhaps the chance that a religion will spread to one of their cities (randomly) will double once they have the necessary tech.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

The fact that the AI won't do it is even worse. Getting Ancient Forests is a huge advantage. Unless I desparately need my hero I'll just wait until after I've researched leaves. And it normally takes at least 10 turns to research a tech, so the minimum time between switching religions won't matter.

There are plenty of powerful exploits in the game. If you want to use one, that's your choice.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Having played a 0.15 game in which I founded all five religions I understand how debilitating loss of a relion is to the AI. I got a fabulous start, sure. But the main reason I was so far ahead was the lack of religion for AI civs. They got stuck in the hole early and I kept digging it deeper by eliminating their alternative religions. So some change that works well with AI concerns wold get my support.

I am still emotionally in favor of the high-risk status quo, as it is my personal experience that the loss of a Early Three religion is not a deathblow. This is even more true in 0.16, which has reduced the happycap benefit some compared to 0.15. Many options exist for the leader who learns someone has beaten them to their Early Three religion.

1> Pursue one of the remainng two E3 faiths.
2> Refocus immedeately on an L2 religion.
3> Persue secular building alternatives.
4> Natural resources.
5> War.
6> Trade.

#1 can be risky, though Leaves/OO are close.

#2 is probably less risky. If you make it a national priority you should be able to beat the AI to this corner of the tech map. (hich leads to a PS below.)

#3 is perfectly viable. You start noticing twists that never seemed important before. Such as Marketplaces and the Consumption civic. Sure, a religion gives you a bunch of extra happy faces ... but you 'use' them only one at a time. City populations grow so long as there is one extra happyface or 1,000. The secular route makes you scramble to keep raising that happycap limit ahead of your population growth, but it can be done. And in doing so, you find yourself with no temples but a lot of Marketplaces, extra trade routes, and running Consumption a century before you expected.

#4 is viable or it is not depending upon your map. If you see a lot of silk and bananas and ellyphants and whatnot, you can duplicate the religions happycap bonus pretty easilly.

#5 sometimes you are forced into a war that in any other circumstances would be considered too early, risky, and ambitious. If so you might become one of those rarest of all animals. SOmeone with a reason to use City States.

#6 when you are small and it is early then diplomacy becomes much more than an afterthought. Fortunatley, the lack of a State Religion also means a lack of diplomatic objections. It is easier, noticably easier, to swing deals with AI civs when your civ has no official religion. It is easier to avoid unwanted war.

Postscript: When you consider the risk in missing an E3 religion, and in light of the non-religious alternatives now available in 0.16, the strongest strategy now seems to be to target an L2 religion right at game start. Use that time to lay a secular foundation. Then make the run for the L2 of choice. It's almost a certainty you can beat the dumb AI that deep into the tree.

However, all that being said, some change the made the AI play notably 'better' is probably worth it. It's probably not a bad idea if second-placers got some sort of consideration. However I do think 2nd-placers should get something that is notably less effective as a "seed". There should still be a decision point: do I keep going and get the booby prize, or do I shift gears right now? make the booby prize too attractive, and poof goes the decision point.

Fun discussuion

 

[Sureshot]

I really think that you should not let multiple people "discover" the same religion.

It would take an interesting choice out of the game: what religion am I going to go for? How important is this religion to me -- how many other techs should I go for first? With this change, I can end up going for all of them at my leisure (oh, and abandon my state religion one turn before discovering the new religion). I am going to get Leaves every time just for the Ancient forests...

Here's a runner's up prize: what if anyone who discovered the appropriate tech found out where on the map the holy city is. That would give the person a mild thank-you-for-playing prize, and if they wanted to convert to that religion, they could always go and try to make contact with the appropriate Civ.

the idea is you can't research a Way of tech if you have a state religion so that means you have to spend the entire research time without a state religion. if you have a holy city you shouldnt be able to found a new religion either.

 

[AlterMann]

one of the biggest reward of founding a religion is the chance to build the holy city, right? would it be possible to give followers of the same religion the chance to prove their faith by slaying their arch-enemys?
example:
bannor and elohim are both order, bannor has the holy city. if elohim managed to kill more (30%?) ashen-veil (or OO) units then bannor, elohim should declare themself "defender of the faith" and the holy city moves to a elohim city.
maybe this ability should be tied to fanatism?
just a idea

best wishes
AlterMann

ps: sorry for my bad english

 

[marioflag]

The defender of the faith is really a good idea!Perhaps instead of moving holy city there should be a huge prize for the civ which get this title

 

[Hypnotoad]

Okay, so perhaps you can find effective ways to stop people from exploiting this to acquire extra religions.

I still think the change removes an interesting tension in the game. I find choosing what techs to go for one of the most interesting choices in FfH.

 

[subanark]

If someone has already founded a religion, consider the penalities of going for it yourself:

1. No holy city.
2. You help your opponent get closer to a religous victory.
3. You are now competing for wonders/heroes. And your opponent has a head start.

If you almost had the relgion before someone else founded it, it might be worth it to get it now, and switch later were you can have your own heroes.

Plus if you add the chance of moving the holy city to another city if the owner doesn't have that religion as the State religion, you greatly diminish the effects of religion hoarding.

If you keep the idea of not allowing reasearching a religion if you have a state religion, this will hurt players (AI espically) that adoped another religion that was 'forced' onto them. But at the same time this still allows the agnonstic civs from hording religions (this is easily solved by not allowing those civs from researching any religion techs).

 

[Nero's fire]

The idea of "Defenders of the Faith" could reduce war weariness. So long as your at war with your religions mortal enemy people are more behind their goverment. This would increase the good versus evil wars which is something the mod goes for. Both sides obviously get the benifit leading to longer drawn out wars and increased frequency.

Opposites could be Ashen Viel <--> Order
and OO <--> Runes

I am not familiar with any other mod that moves holy cities and I see this being a considerable challenge for a small thing. Like a great scientist with writing the holy city is the reward you get for getting to the way tech first.